Kata-What is the point in it?

[equaninimus]

The opening technique in Kusanku is a good example of how every movement has an oyo. The act of raising the hands above the head, leaining forward, and sweeping them in an arc to the groin level is a handy release froma full nelson.

 

In Gojushiho, the opening movements, or "salutation, are a defence from a cross handed wrist grab.

[Drunken Monkey]

we can argue semantics here all day.

 

to be honest i am only seeing things from the point of view of chinese martial art practioner.

 

we have always been told that forms are the presentational form of the techniques.

 

in the forms are the movements, sometimes combined with different footwork and that the purpose of practising the form is so that our body gets to know what the movements feel like and how to do them 'naturally' and move 'naturally' whilst doing them.

 

when we have a hand movement, it represents every instance in which we might do that kind of hand movement; an arm extension is an arm extension be it a hit or push or grab or whatever.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

THe truth behind kata is explained in the Bubishi, and I assure you it is most certainly not a religious dance. I don't mean to smash your thread but you should spend less time typing more time practicing kata and the bunkhai (application of the kata).

 

Agreed!

 

Another thing I thought of was this. I think that if you think kata sucks and is of no more use than just a dance, then your sensei isn't teaching your kata correctly and explaining the purpose and revelancy of the kata to training. It's entirely possible, and I've seen this many times before, that your sensei wasn't taught properly himself, and is only passing on the philosophy that HE was taught.

[Sasori_Te]

To the original post...

 

Huh????? What has your instructor been teaching you. Better question, what hasn't he been teaching you? You may really need to look into a new instructor if you've been training for over 3 or 4 years and think this way. You only need to watch Master Seiyu Oyata perform kata and then the bunkai/ oyo to see that EVERY move in a kata has an application. It is by no means a dance much less religious.

[equaninimus]

He may have been reading Barefoot Zen.

[returning_wave]

Someone above me said Kata is karate. I dont believe any statement is more ture in karate training. Every kata is the lifes work of a master, and every tiny movement has a combat application on the street. They are far from a religous dance, and, studied correctly, even one kata will make you a feared fighter.

 

If you find yourself disillusioned with karate kata, I reccomend the work of Iain Abernethy http://www.iainabernethy.com, who opened my eyes.

[ESA-Shotokan]

Tonight I was working on taikyoko shodan (kihon kata for some) and yet, after twenty plus years in karate, I have come away having learnt even more about this kata and movement / breathing in karate.

 

Kata is essential. On a basic level, you can look on kata as being a way to transport from one place to another, the teaching of karate. The teachings of shotokan are held in the kata and what easy way to be able to gather all the knowledge into a series of "moves" which when broken down, form a million lessons of karate application.

 

If you said to someone, okay I want you to learn these million moves and try to memorise them all by the end of the year! Quite impossible. But ask a person to learn 26 kata and they have all that knowledge in a convenient package. (By learn, I mean to mimic and not to fully "learn" by the true definition of that word.)

 

The trick then is to break down this package and understand the meaning and application of each element. Hence we develop kihon and kumite and variations of the kata itself.

 

Quite a good idea, if you ask me.

 

[Neil]

I think you will find these katas are religious dances. There are certain movements that you will find in Buddism and religions across India and China. They are definately intwinned in religion. As I have already stated the kata begins with religeous movements such as bringing the heands from the head through the body in front of the groin going through the chakras of the body. This is in no way a fighting technique. Anyone that thinks that karate has no religion in it has no idea what he is doing. True we can just 'DO' the kata but whats the point if you don't know WHAT you are doing. Karate and religion are inseperable. When you bow at the start of the kata you are not bowing to the teacher, you are bowing to the people who have gone before you. Katas are deeply rooted in religion, or is it just coincidence that some katas just happen to have buddist hands in it? You don't have to be religeos to do the katas, but it is intwinned in religeon non the less.

 

Neil

[Drunken Monkey]

karate has origins in shaolin so there are going to elements of shaolin that remain in karate forms.

 

however, does that in itself make the katas a religious dance?

 

considering that karate was developed outside of china, outside of shaolin and the buddhist 'way' (not really a religion anyway) i would say that they are not.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I think you will find these katas are religious dances. There are certain movements that you will find in Buddism and religions across India and China. They are definately intwinned in religion. As I have already stated the kata begins with religeous movements such as bringing the heands from the head through the body in front of the groin going through the chakras of the body. This is in no way a fighting technique. Anyone that thinks that karate has no religion in it has no idea what he is doing. True we can just 'DO' the kata but whats the point if you don't know WHAT you are doing. Karate and religion are inseperable. When you bow at the start of the kata you are not bowing to the teacher, you are bowing to the people who have gone before you. Katas are deeply rooted in religion, or is it just coincidence that some katas just happen to have buddist hands in it? You don't have to be religeos to do the katas, but it is intwinned in religeon non the less.

 

Neil

 

*sigh*...all I can say is that I feel you are misinformed and mistaught. Sure, some martial arts systems have religous overtones or teachings..I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) that Shorinji Kempo is one of them. Okinawan system, such as Shorinryu that I practice, have no religion in them that I am aware of. Yes, the bow at the beginning/end of kata, or various times during the class, is a sign of respect and greeting to your fellow practioners of the art, and yes, it is also often times used as a sign of respect for past practioners, but does not have any religous significance that I'm aware of.

 

Think of the bow this way. In the Western part of the world, we shake hands when we greet each other. In the East, it's a bow. Basically, the same significance.

 

My opinion, but if you don't care for kata, I'd suggest getting into a system, such as a reality based system, where kata isn't stressed, or taught at all.