Kata-What is the point in it?

[Neil]

Hi,

 

I made this post after looking at the Goju post and other postings made and just want to make it a little clearer on what the katas are actually for and how they are supposed to be used for maximum affect.

 

NHB and other combat sports are against kata because they see kata as fighting technique as do Martial Artists themselves. But kata is not techniques.

 

KATA IS A RELIGIOUS DANCE THAT CONTAINS SYMBALS NOT FIGHTING TECHNIQUES, FIGHTING TECHNIQUES ARE DERIVED FROM THE SYMBALS, FROM THE KATA!

 

Karate is kata. End of! That is it. Kata is all that is karate. Kata or karate, is a thinking mans game, not a flippy floppy sport where we score a point and get a trophy for are flippancy. Kata is a studying game, you must think, 'what is this movement teaching me to do?' but when you apply it it will LOOK nothing like it was in the kata. Fighting will never look like a kata do in million years, thats why when people rush through the kata, the stronger the faster the better, they have completely missed the point.

 

Kata are symbals for you to make the best application for your own body type, that is why certain katas are meant for different size people. I think from this, katas are grouped together into a system to fit a certain body type, buts thats just me hypothesising, but to me it makes some sense as to why we have styles.

 

Anyway back to kata, this way of thinking that kata are fighting techniques have lead to innapropiate applications that we can see across virtually every dojo in the world. Such as the upper forearm block, age uke. That was never made to be applied as a block but to smash your forearm into the person neck. And what is the hikate for every time you punch. Its application is pulling their pectorial muscle or kidney, and pulling that muscle, bringing the person in close to smack, so you have a pull push affect to take someone out. gedan barais can be throws, not just the attck to the groin, which I personally don't like, because you have kicks to do that for you, and it certainly isn't a block!

 

You reall have to analyze why the kata is making this movement, it is not clear-cut. Because a symbal looks like a block, think, use-your-head, remember there is no time for a block in a street confrontation, your only self defence is your offence, preemptive strikes work a lot better, the most violant and aggresive and co-rodinated man will always win, not the one who can put a wrist lock on!

 

But certain parts of kata are to be respected as religious and not fighting and this is in the goju katas from the bow, and the hands going from the top of the head to the groin, and at the end with the bow and yoi. People have said you have your hands in front of your groin to stop someone kicking you there. I would love it if someone would be willing to try that out. The only way to stop your self getting kicked in the groin is to move it!

 

Anyway just thought I might cover briefly some aspects of the actuall point of doing kata and what kata is not.

 

Neil

[Natural]

Well, to be honest you know alot about katas, then me kata is like a ryhthem like a ballet taken to a rountine, by practice it helps you to imaginary oponent or something I don't really know.

[ramymensa]

let's not forget that a lot of informations were given to us by japanese in order to misunderstand some techniques. Indeed age uke is not quite a good block unless one wishes to break one's arm .

 

The good thing is many instructors learnt the right thing afterwards and they teach OK. A good instructor would eventually poit out the mistakes and give the right solution. Kata is still vital for a karateka and learning it the right way can only improve the technique.

[aznkarateboi]

Age-Uke can also be used to deflect a blow upwards and create an opening. However, I don't think that is the most effective use of the block. Every block done traditionally is clearly an arm breaking move, you can see this by paying attention to how both hands move. Usually one hand (the pulling hand) is securing the opponent's arm while the other is being smashed into the limb.

[martialartsresearcher]

Well... Kata builds up strength,speed,endurence,stamina and techneque. And don't forget balance too. basicly kata is an excercise. As you already know. but as one Karate Forum member once said. (Kata is a love/hate relationship with any MA practator.) end quote. Anyways, i hope this helps. See ya.

[ESA-Shotokan]

Only reply for me here is to refer to my post, "Lesson for the week".

 

[Drunken Monkey]

i think people mistake the kata as being a set of moves when in fact it is a set of movements.

 

very slight/subtle difference but an important one.

[equaninimus]

What DM said.

 

Kata is often referred to by McDojo types (see the recent Discovery channel "Extreme Martial Arts" fiasco) as "A fight aginst a series of imaginary opponents," and viewed sequentially. This is incorrect. The "I block and counter him, then I turn, and block and counter the next guy" seems to have been the interpertation favoured by the university clubs in pre-war Japan, and thus was passed on to the US in the 1950s and 1960s. The Okinawans never saw kata this way, and the Okinawan schools that flourished in teh US usually taught kata oyo in their curriculum. It was only in the later 1970s that the understanding of kata as "technique bank" rather than as "preserved fight scene" began to emerge into the mainstream.

 

Unfortunately the "block, then punch" mentality remains popular, especially in "commercial" schools, where there is less time to devote to actually learning karate. It is also still prominent in the dojo of many Japanese instructors who emigrated in the 1960s and 1970s.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

KATA IS A RELIGIOUS DANCE THAT CONTAINS SYMBALS NOT FIGHTING TECHNIQUES, FIGHTING TECHNIQUES ARE DERIVED FROM THE SYMBALS, FROM THE KATA!

 

Kata movements are merely symbols? Sorry, but I'll disagree with that. Every movement and motion in a kata has a real life purpose as a technique, that IF USED PROPERLY, and in the RIGHT SITUATION, is effective. Now, having watched some dozens of different system doing different kata, I can understand why you would make this statement, as there are many systems (no specific systems mentioned here) that will use, for example, and upward block where the forearm is parallel to the ground at its full extension..and that's just plain bad technique if you tried to use it to block anything harder or heavier than a punch.

 

For example, when I was much younger (and stupider with good insurance coverage) and a Shodan, I had a student take a wooden regulation baseball bat..looked him straight in the eye and told him to hit me as hard as he could in a downward motion to my head. Keep in mind here that we, in the system that I practice, DO NOT have our forearm in an upward block parallel with the ground. Rather, our forearm is at a 45 degree angle to the ground so that a striking weapon, such as a bat, hits the forearm, then slides down to the side.

 

Anyway, back to the student with the bat. He is nearly my size, and being the good, obedient student that he is, came at me full power and tried to squish my brains to a pulp with the bat. I executed the upward block AS WE DO IT, and it sucessfully deflected the blow to the side and didn't touch my head. Did it hurt? OH YEAH..hurt like hell and was black and blue for 2 weeks afterwards..but it did not break the skin, touch my head, or break my arm..as the block is designed to do. It also left my student off balance with his followthrough, and in a real situation, I feel he was wide open for a counter attack. I have absolute faith in that block and would use it readily in the same situation.

 

 

Karate is kata. End of! That is it. Kata is all that is karate. Kata or karate, is a thinking mans game, not a flippy floppy sport where we score a point and get a trophy for are flippancy. Kata is a studying game, you must think, 'what is this movement teaching me to do?' but when you apply it it will LOOK nothing like it was in the kata. Fighting will never look like a kata do in million years, thats why when people rush through the kata, the stronger the faster the better, they have completely missed the point.

 

Sure, the technique in kata are the "perfect" application of the movement and in a real situation may not look EXACTLY like they do in the kata, but will the technique be uable in a real fight? Absolutly yes! Maybe in Goju this is true, but don't lump all systems into the same catagory as what you are doing, and what you perceive as correct.

 

 

Kata are symbals for you to make the best application for your own body type, that is why certain katas are meant for different size people. I think from this, katas are grouped together into a system to fit a certain body type, buts thats just me hypothesising, but to me it makes some sense as to why we have styles.

 

Again, maybe this is true of Goju, I really don't know, but I'm 6'6" (198cm) tall and weigh around 240lbs, and the techniques work fine for a man my size, or for a woman 5' tall and 90lbs. Sure, bodysize makes for some adjustments, but generally, I don't believe that is that big of a differance.

Anyway back to kata, this way of thinking that kata are fighting techniques have lead to innapropiate applications that we can see across virtually every dojo in the world. Such as the upper forearm block, age uke. That was never made to be applied as a block but to smash your forearm into the person neck. And what is the hikate for every time you punch. Its application is pulling their pectorial muscle or kidney, and pulling that muscle, bringing the person in close to smack, so you have a pull push affect to take someone out. gedan barais can be throws, not just the attck to the groin, which I personally don't like, because you have kicks to do that for you, and it certainly isn't a block!

 

Yes, the forearm smashing into the chin or throat of an opponet is one of the applications of a upper block, but so is an arm break/hyperextension, an uppercut to the jaw and probably several other things. To say it's not an effective or usable block is simply not correct. Again, maybe in goju.....

remember there is no time for a block in a street confrontation, your only self defence is your offence, preemptive strikes work a lot better, the most violant and aggresive and co-rodinated man will always win, not the one who can put a wrist lock on!

 

I've been in a number of real fights (not the ring) since beginning karate training back in 1975, and I have successfully used locks, blocks, sweeps and of course striking techniques to stop my attackers. Have you ever watched the TV show..."Cops"? I';d suggest you do, as those people, men and women, use joint locks against people that are trying to escape on a regular basis..and htey work!

But certain parts of kata are to be respected as religious and not fighting and this is in the goju katas from the bow, and the hands going from the top of the head to the groin, and at the end with the bow and yoi. People have said you have your hands in front of your groin to stop someone kicking you there. I would love it if someone would be willing to try that out. The only way to stop your self getting kicked in the groin is to move it!

 

Yes, getting your groin out of the way is ALWAYS the best method..no argument there, but the begining hand motions of the kata have several applications which you may not be awre of. They are a "symbol" (figured you'd like this one) of being prepared and ready. They are also a method of breaking a persons grasp (if you know how to do it anyway) of your chest/shirt/gi. As far as I know, there is no religous meaning to the move at all, but that will vary from one system to another I suppose. Again, don't lump all systems into the same narrow field as you are putting them.

[kotegashiNeo]

THe truth behind kata is explained in the Bubishi, and I assure you it is most certainly not a religious dance. I don't mean to smash your thread but you should spend less time typing more time practicing kata and the bunkhai (application of the kata).