Comparing these styles: Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu and Goju

[I-Self]

Why do Wado, Shotokan and Shorin Ryu?

Started with Wado, in 1981. Did that until I went into the Army in 1991. When I got to Germany I was unable to find a Wado dojo, so went for what was available: Shotokan. Did that from 1991-2003. When I moved back to Colorado to enter the PhD program in history at CU Boulder, I found the Seibukan dojo run by Sensei Victor Banks. I don't know any Sensei Hayes. I know of a person named Bill Hayes, but I thought he did Okinawa Kempo. We are part of Dan Smith's organization, and directly under the Hombu Dojo and Hanshi Shimabukuro.

 

As for how I should have "avoided rude comments," I have yet to find a situation where anyone "deserves" rude comments. If your ego is so easily bruised that you find yourself easily offended, then perhaps there are ways you may improve your self worth without wasting time and displaying rudeness. Those who so quickly respond in the manner you did generally have a great deal of personal growth to experience. Have a good evening.

 

No, no, no. Bill Hayes is 100% Shobayashi like yourself. You should know this man. He really studied directly, on Okinawa, under Sensei Shimabukuro. He's like a 7th or 8th dan, dude.

 

Personal growth is never ending. Harsh words on a type-written forum will not bruise anything but your ego. I am not hurt at all, but you seem to be flustered a bit. Chill, bruh':D. If you are a PhD then you comprehending my colloquialisms and elementary grammar should be no prob, bro'. You had to write a dissertation for God's sake!

 

Correct me only if there is a correction needed. I am not one of your presumptuous undergrad students. I'm an MD with years of experience in Okinawan Karate. Did Judo, boxing, GJJ at Gracie Torrance (still do), but my true love is Shorin Ryu.

 

I do have room to mature more as do we all. I would never make the comprehension mistakes that you made. That I can say for certain. Sorry if you feel I'm a bad person unworthy to be taught any MA. I'm glad you can discern my character from these few posts. Do you make ducats off that innate skill ?

 

You do react very patently to my writing style, that I'll say with certainty. People on the net always want to feel they know it all and hate a know-it-all (I'm not one but have been mistaken for one). The truth is what we all need, regardless what G.W. tells us all! I don't lie to your face while I smile and speak softly. I tell it like it is in a very clear tone. Ommmmmmmm!!!!

 

Pax Egyptiana rolls on in the name of C.U. Grad' School....

 

CU , C.U. Grad dude!

[equaninimus]

Not a PhD yet. (sigh!) Merely an overworked student and adjunct prof at a community college.

 

Anyway, one of the largest differences I have found between the Japanese and Okinawan styles has been emphasis. This difference in emphasis is most evident in training methods. Both Wado and Shoto training follow the university model of line drill kihon, step kumite, and kata (in about that order of time spent). At the Seibukan dojo we spend a large amount of time (especially in the BB class) doing partner work using oyo from the different kata.

 

Another example of the emphasis on self defence, rather than competition, may be seen in the performance of the kata themselves. The Seibukan kata are more energetic than their Japanized counterparts, and not as "pretty." They incorporate many examples of yori ashi foot movement, instead of the mere stepping movements favoured by the Japanese styles.

 

As far as Shoto and Wado go, I can understand this, since apparently Funakoshi was a rather low-skill Karateka, and his students would have had to adapt to his less than stellar example. What I do not understand is how Shito-ryu, whose founder was apparently quite skilled, has had most of the lethality of its techniqes edited out.

 

I first noticed the difference in the 1980s when I was at the U of Wyoming getting a * in Molecular Bio (yes, Wyoming has a University, No, we did not ride horses to class! ) and did Okinawan Kempo (Nakamura lineage) for four years during the school years. The techniqes were completely different. Being the arrogant, know it all, still stiff belted new Wado Shodan that I was at the time, I pretty much avoided absorbing anything useful from the experience.

 

I had another chance to observe Okinawan Karate when I was at the U of Washington in the later 1990s doing another BA (History this time). The Shotokan group practiced in a community center in the U district, and in the room below the one we used a Matsumura Kempo group practiced. I watched them practice occaisionally, and by that time had started to lose the "Japanese Karate snobbery" that had plagued me for over a decade. If I had had the time I would have dug out the white belt and tried to do both. Unfortunately, school and two part time jobs (ER Tech at Harborview Med Center, and EMT-P with Shepard in Tacoma) cut into my karate time.

 

In Baltimore there was little but TKD (aptly referred to as "take one's dough"), but I managed to find a very good Shotokan school, and practice with them while getting a first rate MA in history from a second rate (and I'm being generous here) school. While in Bawl'mer, I began reading and researching into Karate's history, and decided that if the chance ever came, I would try and train in an Okinawan style.

 

Well, when I got here, I was doing Shotokan, and babying my knees after every practice, when an undergrad in one of my Western Civ classes happened to be wearing a Seibukan t-shirt, and one thing led to another.

 

At this point I feel like I am finally learning the correct way to perform Karate techniques. The hardest things seem to be learning to relax, and avoiding the exaggerated stances I learned in Shotokan and Wado.

[krunchyfrogg]

Peace and I hope this helps. Train with diligence and realism.

 

Wow, thanks!

 

I'm moving in 9 months, and I'm looking at a school that teaches Shorin-Ryu and Goju. Coming from my current school (Shorin-Ryu, Goju, Shotokan), I was hoping for a good match. After reading your post (and many other smaller posts in this thread), I'm convinced that this will be a good match.

[Radok]

I do Shorinkan, it works for me. My instructor said he did Shotokan before and didn't like it as much. (No weapons, too long stances, not fluid enough.)

[I-Self]

I apologize for hijacking your thread krunch'. My histories may be a little different than some, but the same as others. If you find a good traditional dojo, stick with it whatever the style. Many of the greatest karate-ka like Yuchoku Higa, became adept at Shorin and Goju.

 

Equs': You picked a great style, in my opinion. Seibukan is all you'll really need as far as karate or a complete MA goes. At a seminar years ago Shimabukuro Sensei made the comment that with years of kata training and eventual understanding of the movements, jujutsu-like (tuite) throws and submissions could be gleaned. He was so right on when he said that, and true Okinawan stylists, whether Goju, Uechi or Shorin can attest to this fact.

 

2-man drills (partner drills) are the missing element in many modern karate systems. There was no real kumite before Shotokan. The only real matches were for keeps; NHB fighting that occured when someone wanted to test someone else's claims. So with the exception of hojo undo and kata training, 2-man drills were a very effective way to measure the ryuhas principles.

 

I don't dismiss Shotokan or Wado at all. I don't think that Nisei Goju or Chinese Goju stylists don't do good forms of karate. I have the utmost respect for Funakoshi and realize people other than himself changed the intent of that ryu's karate completely. Funakoshi learned under Asato and Itosu. In fact he was the only true student of Master Asato, who was a highly respected member of the Okinawan royal family, master calligrapher and Jigen Ryu swordsman. He also learned under Matsumura. Being of high stature in the Okinawan social hierarchy, he was privy to such legendary teachers.

 

He is often thought of as someone who had meager skill. I don't know if this is true. He may have been average as far as karate-ka were concerned, but average then probably meant "G-DizAMN good" now. Many Okinawans despised him for "selling-out" to the Japanese, and therefore said some unfair things about him. He was very proficient in tegumi ("Okinawan JJ"), as were most young men of that era. That means he could grapple on the ground and standing. He said himself that this greatly increased his ability and understanding when it came to tode jutsu. He could definitely hold his own in all ranges I think.

 

If you see pics of him in his younger years he was an outstanding physical specimen. What he taught the Japanese was probably just an intermediate, incomplete understanding of what true tode was. That was his intent. Keep it alive, but don't give it all away. He was a very smart cat. He wanted to make the Okinawans look like a refined, civilized people. they edserved that as they were always a peaceful, intuitive and laid back sort. He mentions this in "Karate Jutsu" in so many words. He made the concept and the philosophy of tode/karate a worldwide phenomenon. Now we have forums like this where we can disparage, hype or ignore him.

 

Radok, this leads me to you. I had an assistant instructor on Clark AB in the Philippines by the name of Julio who was a Shotokan stylist that said the same thing. He detailed the differences as he knew them and explained that what we did was similar, but much more logical at the same time. He also taught me how to sprawl when facing a wrestler's shoot. It saved my * more than once in the streets. My current sensei was a Boxer, Shotokan, Uechi Ryu and Shorinji Ryu stylist before becoming a Matsumura Seito stalwart. Without Shotokan maybe he would never have done any karate ever, and I'd be out 1 great shinshii (sensei).

 

You real traditionalists keep training and don't give in to the quick fix mentality. Anything worth its mustard takes years to master. Patience will get you to that point. Even a so-called modern "non-traditional" art like GJJ (actually it is a traditional family system [older than a lot of karate styles] in every sense of the word) takes years to truly master. If you train in an art and find something more conducive to your personality and needs by all means switch quickly. "Get in where you fit in" as the kids say. Adapt and adopt like "Matsumura's Bucho Ikko" states.

 

Good luck on attaining your PhD Equinanimus. Happy training and long life to you all.

[EvilTed]

Jodan, I meant Judan - he he, but we do have some big guys

 

Anyway, after 5 hours in the emergency room today and 12 x-rays later, I have another fracture to take care of

 

Now I got to learn not to throw kicks so damn hard ( or if I do, land them correctly )

 

What was pleasing was when the nurse took my blood pressure and monitored my heart and said they were both really good for a 20 year old.

 

For someone 40 this year like me, she said it was excellent and if I kept doing what I was doing (not the fractures) , I'd live to be 100

 

Osu!

 

ET

[EvilTed]

Jodan, I meant Judan - he he, but we do have some big guys

 

Anyway, after 5 hours in the emergency room today and 12 x-rays later, I have another fracture to take care of

 

Now I got to learn not to throw kicks so damn hard ( or if I do, land them correctly )

 

What was pleasing was when the nurse took my blood pressure and monitored my heart and said they were both really good for a 20 year old.

 

For someone 40 this year like me, she said it was excellent and if I kept doing what I was doing (not the fractures) , I'd live to be 100

 

Osu!

 

ET

[EvilTed]

Jodan, I meant Judan - he he, but we do have some big guys

 

Anyway, after 5 hours in the emergency room today and 12 x-rays later, I have another fracture to take care of

 

Now I got to learn not to throw kicks so damn hard ( or if I do, land them correctly )

 

What was pleasing was when the nurse took my blood pressure and monitored my heart and said they were both really good for a 20 year old.

 

For someone 40 this year like me, she said it was excellent and if I kept doing what I was doing (not the fractures) , I'd live to be 100

 

Osu!

 

ET

[krunchyfrogg]

Say that again, EvilTed...

 

BTW, as an X-Ray Tech, if all you hurt was your feet, 12 X-Rays are too many.

 

 

I apologize for hijacking your thread krunch'. My histories may be a little different than some, but the same as others. If you find a good traditional dojo, stick with it whatever the style. Many of the greatest karate-ka like Yuchoku Higa, became adept at Shorin and Goju.

 

I don't look at it as "hijaking" at all. I feel as if I've learned something (and I'll take it all with a grain of salt). My real worry is finding a good school when I move, and even knowing what to look for in a good school.

 

This may be straying off (my own) topic a bit, but how do you know you have a good school (besides avoiding Tiger Schulman)?

[Goju1]

He also taught me how to sprawl when facing a wrestler's shoot. It saved my * more than once in the streets. .

 

Care to share this? (if its possible to describe in words

You real traditionalists keep training and don't give in to the quick fix mentality. Anything worth its mustard takes years to master. Patience will get you to that point. If you train in an art and find something more conducive to your personality and needs by all means switch quickly. "Get in where you fit in" as the kids say. Adapt and adopt like "Matsumura's Bucho Ikko" states.

 

Happy training and long life to you all.

 

Well said, and great post!