Comparing these styles: Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu and Goju

[krunchyfrogg]

Hey everybody. I belong to a school that teaches a combination of all three of the above styles.

 

Out of curiousity, what is the emphasis of each style? I'm not sure what parts of which style I'm learning, and it would be interesting to have a little more insight in this respect.

 

TIA!

[SaiFightsMS]

Shotokan uses deeper stances than shorin ryu.

 

Shotokan uses Japanese names shorin ryu uses Okinawan names.

 

I can't say much about goju I don't know a lot.

[ESA-Shotokan]

I can't comment much here except to say that where Shotokan uses a deep, kokutsu-dachi, ( back stance) a lot of comparible karate styles use neko-ashi-dachi (or cat stance).

[kotegashiNeo]

Goju is an in close fighting system with elbow and knees strikes. Heavily influnced by white crane kempo and monk fist boxing. It adds a soft element not found in shotokan yeilding when faced with force. If you find yourself doing mawashi uke in sanchin dachi that is goju ryu. I am curious about why your system has chosen combine these three as each one is a complete style in its own right.

[krunchyfrogg]

I am curious about why your system has chosen combine these three as each one is a complete style in its own right.

 

Sorry for taking so long to respond.

 

It is my understanding that the Renshi of our stye, who has since passed away, was a master of all three styles. He blended them into one style when he started this school.

[G95champ]

Shotokan was basically built from the other 2.

[I-Self]

Shorin Ryu is a major Okinawan Ryu comprised of 4 main branches.

 

The oldest and most traditional of these schools is Matsumura Seito, founded by Hohan Soken, the Grandnephew of the founder of Shuri-te (forerunner of modern Shorin), Sokon Machimura (Matsumura). Matsumura's training included Fujian Shaolin Chuan Fa (Sifu Iwah c. 1800s), Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (fighting style of the Satsuma Samurai) and Ti- the native striking and grappling arts of Okinawa. He was graded a master instructor (Shihan in Japanese) in all. As Head of the Royal Palace Guard for 3 Okinawan kings (Shuri Castle), much of his art is based on self protection/preservation. Nabe Matsumura the nephew of Sokon, taught his nephew Hohan Soken the karate that was passed down to him from Matsumura Sokon. Matsumura taught many people, but only Matsumura learned the intricacies of this system (ex. the Hakutsuru [White Crane] Kata). His style was an older, rawer form not greatly influenced by the primary school-based systems of Shorin Ryu. Hohan Soken's Seito (Orthodox) has a lot of in-close fighting, grappling and PP fighting in it. The kicks rarely go above the waist, and there is no true roundhouse or ball-of-the foot kicking. It also uses a 3/4 twist punch (45 degrees) like its Kyan influenced sister systems (discussed later).

 

Choshin Chibana student of Anko Itosu (who was a student of Gusukuma Shinshii and Sokon Matsumura) is the progenitor of the Kobayashi branch of Shorin Ryu. Chibana is credited with coining the term "Shorin Ryu" to signify his styles connection to the Shorinji (Shaolin Temple). Two Ryuha (subsystems) comprise Kobayashi: Shidokan (Miyazato) and Shorinkan (Nakazato Shuguro). Itosu had many students, one of which was Gichin Funakoshi, and he wanted chang the intent of Okinawan karate to that of a system based on teaching middle-school aged children. Many of the dangerous elements were replaced with athletic drills and the horizontal fist, as well as less mobile and exercise minded wide and long stances. Many of the grappling and self-preservation techniques were deleted or altered.

 

The Kobayashi Shorinkan system is very kumite oriented, and any and every kick and hand strike seen in modern styles is present (Western Boxing and Muay Thai included). It is a very athletic style of Shorin and bears a strong resemblance to Shotokan, albeit less rigid and more circular in its approach. At the higher levels more emphasis is on fluidity with speed, relaxed technique and self-defense against one or multiple opponents. Shidokan is very similar and also bears a striking resemblance to Shotokan.

 

Shobayashi (sometimes called Sukunaihayashi), ShorinJi Ryu and Chubu Shorin Ryu are all part of the Chotoku Kyan school of thought. It is very similar to Kobayashi, but the use of the 3/4 twist or vertical fist is preferred. Kyan was noted for his speed and kicking ability, and his ability to fight although he was a small guy. Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis were former BBs of Shobayashi and ShorinJi Ryu, respectively. They later formed the core for the genesis of American Kickboxing.

 

Matsubayashi Ryu was founded by Shoshi Nagamine in 1947. A student of Kosaku Matsumora (Tomari Te- a style integrated with Shuri te to form the Shorin kata) and Choki Motobu among others, he based his style on a quicker, higher stanced system than the Itosu and Kyan influenced systems. It bears some resemblance to all the Shorin Ryuha, but is lacking in conviction on the sparring front or in Orthodox interpretation of kata and bunkai. It is a fast, snappy style that tend to be straight-up, and sometimes deep stanced. It is also a style based on P.E. instruction and not traditional Okinawan Kobujutsu. Kumite is very important but they have not perfected it to the degree the Kobayashi systems have.

 

Shobayashi, Kobayashi and Matsubayashi all mean basically the same thing. "Little Pine Forest, Small Pine Forest or Pine Forest" style, hearkening back to the definition of Shaolin ("Pine Forest" or "Evergreen Forest"). They are closer to each other in application, philosophy and practice than they are to Matsumura Seito.

 

Also part of the Seito family, Matsumura Seito Shorin Kenpo, is a style founded by Yuichi Kuda which combines the teachings of Hohan soken and Shigeru Nakamura of Okinawa Kenpo fame. It is a more rigid, deep stanced system than its Orthodox Shorin Ryu mother, but is the closest to the Seito style of Shorin. It still retains forms of the Seito kata. Whereas Matsura Seito Shuri Te bends at the knees when moving and doing stances, the Kenpo version tends to lock the back leg. This is one subtle difference between the Matsumura Orthodox Karate Jutsu and Matsumura Orthodox Kenpo.

 

Goju is a major Okinawan system based on conditioning the body for contact. All Okinawan karate does body hardening and hojo undo, but Goju Ryu takes it to the highest degree and body-hardening is a focus of training. Known for its Sanchin kata, the use of dynamic tension form of breathing, Ibuki, is said to make the practitoner like a mass of living armor. Kanryo Higashionna brought back the essence of this style from Southern China at about the same time Matsumura did with his Shuri Te. Ru Ru Ko and Wai Shin Shan were his teachers. They supposedly taught him a style of Tiger Fist Boxing and White Crane Chuan Fa, similar to Hung Gar Chuan Fa. His main disciple and the founder of Goju Ryu was Chojun Miyagi. Goju belongs to the Naha Te family (along with Uechi Ryu). Naha being the city, and te meaning "hand". GoJu means "hard, soft, but all styles of okinawan karate are "hard and soft" in nature. Miyagi wanted his style to be brought up int he Public School image of his contemporary Itosu, and called for the addition of kumite or sparring to have an effective test by which to measure his karates effectiveness. Goju is characterized by circular and slower, more deliberate movement. It's kata are in-close fighting oriented and it employs many open hand, trapping and break-hold techniques. It is described as a more circular "Internal" style as opposed to the linear "External" aggressiveness and speed of the Shuri Te/Tomari Te styles (Shorin). Its Sanchin has been shown to be a cause of health concerns later in life and use of the "Valsalva" breathing has led to the shortened life-spans of many of its great practitioners. Still at the yudansha level, Goju and Shorin stylists share a lot of similarities.

 

The main ryuha are the Jundokan, Higaonna Goju (Morio Higaonna an oustanding karate-ka) and the Meibukan.

 

There are also Nisei (Japanese Goju) and Chinese Goju systems. These are modern inventions and the Japanese version is like Okinawan Goju to a certain extent.

 

Shotokan was Funakoshi Gichin's interpretation of the karate he learned on Okinawa. A mediocre karate-ka at best, Funakoshi was well versed in the Japanese language and traditions. Thus hee was an ideal ambassador for introducing "karate" to the Japanese. As a middle-school teacher, his aim was to take Itosu's image of using karate to forge strong men from average boys, and adapt the techniques to fit the Japanese PE curriculum. Shotokan has both Goju and Shorin forms in it but it is more strongly connected to Shorin due to the fact that his main teachers were Itosu Anko and Anko Asato, both students of Matsumura. I like to think of it as true gendai karate, or modernized karate, due to the simple fact that Funakoshi himself wanted to drastically change it to more fit the image of Jigoro Kano's Judo (vs. Daito Ryu JJ for example) as a "do" or philosophical way than a "jutsu" or art/science. It was engineered for a limited purpose, whereas even the modern Ryu of Goju and Shorin retained a lot of their "barabaric" fighting concepts intact. Check out his publications "Karate Jutsu" and "Tode Jutsu" and compare these books to "Karate-DO Kyohan" and you'll understand. 2-man drills and other partner exercise were replaced with karate "randori (judo controlled fighting)" or what we now call kumite.

 

The Okinawan systems always practice some form Kobudo/Kobujutsu. Originally this art was used to refer to all the old school Okinawan arts which included empty-hand and indigenous weapons. Now it's used exclusively to signify weapons training. Traditionally Shotokan didn't include Kobudo because Funakoshi was adapting karate for education and sport, not cultural awareness, traditional info tranferral or the completeness of the Okinawan MAs.

 

Your instructor obviously has vast experience in all 3 to be able to integrate them. Then again why, when they are all complete in their own right? Either that or he knows a bit about all, and is using the different styles to fill in the gaps. Whatever his reasons at least you now have some understanding about the history of your "style(s?)". Do some research on your own and understand what it is you're doing. After all you are investing YOUR time, money and confidence in this style, and in karate specifically.

 

Peace and I hope this helps. Train with diligence and realism.

[Karateka]

Long enough post to be an article

[EvilTed]

Excellent post, I-Self and very informative.

 

Can you please explain more about the problems experienced in later life due to Sanchin and the breathing techniques?

 

I study World Oyama Karate, which is basically the same as Kyokushin, with the same Goju influenced Sanchin and breathing techniques.

 

Thanks

 

ET

[Sho-ju]

I've found Shotokan to be more aggressive then goju and shorin. I believe it has something to do with the time period (WW II) in which it's roots are found.