goju and shorin-ryu?

[I-Self]

Goju Ryu's intent was for body conditioning first and fighting second. Its forms are very different than the Shorin forms. It uses a style of breathing in its Sanchin kata (ibuki), which is the core form and signature of Goju, that does create isometric muscle building but can lead to other problems associated with forced inhalation and exhalation over time (i.e.: strokes, pulmonary emboli, etc.). Goju does tend to spar quite a bit, and in fact Miyagi wanted Goju to go from a kata focus to a kumite one. For the most part he got his wish. Although classified as an internal style Goju is quite tense and hard in its execution, especially at the BB level. It also lacks kobudo (weapons training) in many instances. Higaonna Goju is a first rate Okinawan style, and one that I would recommend for the serious practitioner of karate.

 

Shorin is a major system (Ryu) made up many ryuha (subsystems). It is the forerunner of 80% of karate styles. Although styles like Shito and Shotokan take some of their forms from Goju, they tend to look more like Shorin. They are quite different though and nowhere near the same as its parent style(s). Shorin emphasizes less dramatic, deep and wide stances (for the most part) and natural breathing and movement are emphasized. It emphasizes speed and positioning in its fighting principles and contrary to popular belief is both linear and circular and covers all ranges including some ground techniques and many Okinawan grappling techniques. Kobudo/Kobujutsu is an integral part of high level training. Sparring is emphasized to a great degree in some of its ryuha (Kobayashi-Shorinkan for example), and many of its early American BBs like Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace were the founders of full-contact kickboxing.

 

Shotokan looks sorta' like Kobayashi, but you can see the Goju influence in it with all the constipated looking execution (j/k). Tang Soo Do is also from Shorin via Shotokan, as is Kyokushinkai and most Japanese karate. Goju is too hard for the really young and elderly. Most of its GMs die at young ages. Most Shorin shinshii (sensei) often live well beyond their 80s.

 

Historically Naha Te (Goju not Uechi) was a "commoners" style of fighting. Shorin was the royal palace guards fighting art. I think techs from both sources have been adopted and borrowed since Shuri Te's and Naha Te's formation. Tomari Te has a very minor influence in Shorin, but some Shorin Ryuha such as Matsubayashi borrow heavily from Tomari Te (Kosaku MatsumOra's style especially- not to be confused with Sokon MatsumUra) which was classified as a "peasant" fighting style. Tomari kata are seen in most Shorin systems, with Shuri Te principles applied to the techs.

 

For fighting purposes on the street or in the ring Shorin has a few more notable pioneers and practitioners. Still Goju is cool and in the end we should all look similar if the teaching good.

[jeffrogers]

actually 4 main branches of Shorin Ryu, Kobayashi, shobayashi, matsubayashi, and Matsumura.

[I-Self]

actually 4 main branches of Shorin Ryu, Kobayashi, shobayashi, matsubayashi, and Matsumura.

 

Yeah, I know, I've done 3 of them.

[jeffrogers]

cool!

[kotegashiNeo]

Where is your evidence that the breathing in Sanchin causes any type of illness. Secondly where did you train or get your information on goju from? It sounds like you are a shorin practioner with something against goju because alot of your comments just aren't correct

[I-Self]

Where is your evidence that the breathing in Sanchin causes any type of illness. Secondly where did you train or get your information on goju from? It sounds like you are a shorin practioner with something against goju because alot of your comments just aren't correct

 

You're right I am a Shorin-ka. I have nothing against any Okinawan karate, or ANY good karate for that matter. I tell you these things because physiologically they are true.

 

Ibuki breathing, where you "squeeze" the air slowly from your lungs, forcefully exhaling, is called a valsalva maneuver. It causes a rapid increase in your pulse (heartrate), which is proceeded by a dramatic decrease of pulse rate and blood pressure. It also causes increased intravascular pressure (your veins act like a contricted hose). This leads to the blood being shot rapidly through your vessels. When you get older fat deposits (and other "debris" or plaque) that stick to your vessels can become dislodged and shot up to the brain, causing a Cerebral Vascular Accident (CVA) aka a stroke, maybe even a PE or pulmonary embolus. Other problems like aneurysms can be a consequence too. This is why, with the exception of a couple of Goju Sensei, most have died of these sort of things before reaching a ripe old age. The Okinawans are reknowned for their longevity, living well into their 80s, so why do the majority of Goju Sensei die before reaching 70?

 

So how do I know all these cool things? I read and I'm a former USAF Paramedic who is now in his last year of Medical School, and an Okinawan MAs history-phile. I'll be an MD real soon. You see, not everyone who gets on these forums is a know-nothing or a "can-do-nothing" web-warrior. Some are legit you just ain't heard of us, yet. You would think that my vocabulary, historicity, science and delivery would be enough to tip you off. I'm no imbecile and have been in some martial sport or art since I was 7. I'm in my mid-30s now, so that should give you a barometer of my time in service. 'Nawmean?

 

Look, do what you like. I doesn't have an effect on me. I'm just trying to be cool and helpful. Knowledge is power. Look up my claims for yourself. Heck, if you do MAs you better understand how the human body works. After all it is your vehicle for that trip up the mountain. Sorry if you don't like the truth. Most folks who think they know what is right for them based on emotion and want, never do like reality. Later, and don't train too hard. You don't want to get mugged when your 70 and be all broke up and shite! Plus, strokes and blown out lungs suck!

 

Later

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Well said I-Self! Although I don't have any firsthand background knowledge in the perils of abnormal breathing and tension in the martial arts causing harm, I have read the same thing that I-Self just stated numerous times in books and on the web. I believe it is well documented.

[White Warlock]

I-Self, I would just like to say that I appreciate your informed posts, and hope to see more of them.

 

Thanks.

[Sasori_Te]

Very good post I-self. Did you have another name on this board at one time? I seem to recognize your writing style and your qualifications sound familiar. You are a Orthodox Shorin practitioner. Correct?

[I-Self]

Sa' Te, Shorin Shinshii and W-squared: Thanks guys. I really don't understand the double standard on many forums. People are CONSTANTLY attacking TMAs based on some * sport competition or so-called NHB competition theory(s). I don't know why when someome does that, and then a REAL karate-ka who has fought on the street AND in the ring tells those folks to STFU and quit stereotyping, using stylistic superiority arguments (that they claim you are using), knowing they ain't never fought as an adult for real, and totally dissing what I KNOW has always and will always work for me and other dedicated "traditionalists", I'm told that I can't post comments anymore as they are dismissive and mean or whatever.

 

If I had a name or was a K-1 kickboxer, BJJer or modern ("gendai") budo-ka or martial wannabe, that had a name or made lots of ducats then I could talk all the smack I wanted. The truth is the truth hurts. There are still a few hardcore "classical mess" types, who you would never know could really kick practically anyone's *. And they can do it without the benefit of sponsors or rules, steroids or 8 hours of debiltating training/day. Putting your hands in the pockets of money makers, control freaks and glory hounds will get you some "haters" real fast.

 

Forgive the arrogance, but I like to tell it like it is. No amount of patchwork-hope MAs principles will make you a master of yourself. You will be superficial and incomplete. Instead of trying to jump on the bandwagon (read as "moneywagon"), get a good foundation in something with sound theories that is HEALTHY and long-term. Anything worth its salt, takes time and hard practice. Going to Med School or learning MAs takes a loooong time. There are no quick-fixes and no amount of mediocre, half stepping will make you into something original. Even real modern "traditional" arts like GJJ take years (10 minimum to be exact) to get a BB. Even real Thailand Muay Thai perfection takes years and years of training like the Thais do, to be as profifcient as Thai Boxers that are Thai. No amount of westernized kickboxing (without elbows and knees, etc.) or sparring will get you to this point. That crap is minimal in scope and roughness. If you're gonna claim it do it like they really do it where it came from.

 

This aim of everyone to be the next Helio Gracie, Mark Kerr or George Dillman is plain silly. The first two were original and the last is a perpetrator of fallacy. The first 2 were technical and athletic geniuses and the latter a lifelong karate-ka who found a get rich quick scheme after 30 years of training. At least they are all "unique" in some sense, whereas the majority of cats will always be followers. It's just easier and the average sucker don't have what it takes to be an innovator anyway. How can one be true to himself, without ever coming to true self-revelation or realization? Follow to learn how to lead oneself. Then lead when you have yourself figured out.

 

On Sanchin; Sanchin is also done by some ryuha and schools of Shorin lineage. Shorinji Sanchin is a mild version of the NahaTe version, where audible breathing is performed but in a more natural manner without the tension. It is a good thing. Similar principles and body-conditioning can be reached doing Naihanchi and Seisan also. I love Uechi Ryu/Pangai Noon. I love Higaonna Goju. Morio Higaonna is awesome, definitely one of the best karate-ka in the world. I don't see all dojos that teach Shorin as superior. In fact many are no different than the average karate dojo you see on the street corner. I know from experience Okinawan karate is a very well-rounded way to fight and train. It's for the long haul. It's principles should adapt with the times, but its fundamental techs, philosophies and lessons should never be changed. Bad breathing tech or training is not good for the long haul.

 

I'd rather hear "good looking out" rather than "you hate Goju" because the former is true and the latter a bunch of crap. Yes I have posted here before under a different name and was told that my speech was not free here, that it was a dictatorship and to shut my trap in so many words. I mean they emailed me and stuff. The truth must have KO'd someone that day, hahaha! Ain't that like life? The wrong people's words are heeded and respected so fast so that the voice of reason is incoherent in the din of stupidity's echos. People tend to focus on a few odd terms in type and think they have someone's personality all figured out. Whatever. Those who conform to bad form will never be formless. Those who do not understand true form can never realize what a nonconformist is.

 

Do what you know for yourself is true and right, and don't take anyone's word for it. Unless of course they can validate words with action. Too bad you can't show emotion, intonation or techs on the web. Many people would shut their holes for once and learn something more right than their perceived right.

 

Good luck and training all. I'll reply to something idiotic soon. No doubt.

 

Peace...