do away with MA books and tapes

[delta1]

i only have one MA book, and thats wing chun by james yim-lee. i tried to learn wing chun from that...

 

Don't try to learn the system from your book. Try to get an idea of their principles, concepts, mechanics, etc. Then find a WCer and share some ideas, get him to show you what they do, how they apply what you learned. Then bring it back to your base- similarities, differences, how does your style deal with their approach? There's more to learning another art or yours than rote moves.

 

There's a movie about William Wallace (don't remember the title). One scene comes to mind here- young William is standing by his fathers grave and he longingly takes his uncles sword. His uncle takes the sword back and says "Learn to use this (taping William's head with his finger), then I'll teach you to use this".

[martialartsresearcher]

yeah. well thanks. thanks alot.

 

[martialartsresearcher]

if i had known you could not learn from a book i would have not even tried. thanks guys

[JerryLove]

hi guys, i was wondering? Is it about time they just do aways with MA books and tapes? i mean, books on martial arts can only take you so far. so why use them?

Assuming I go ahead and accept your assertion, the prupose of using books and tapes would be to go that "so far" that you have stated they can get you.

because they are use for people who can't go to MA schools? those who can't afford it? (MA schools). i just don't see why they put out MA books

 

Again, you seem to have given an answer to your own question.

i belive its just a way to make profit and/or to boost the ego of the authors, pr-say.

Much like all entertainment media. Did you ever buy someone's boigraphy?

you can't learn wing chun from a book.

Why not?

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big proponent of studying under an instructor directly... But I learned fencing from books (and with a partner learning from the same source); why couldn't I learn another art the same way?

 

Then, of course, the anti-book group here is ignoring their value to existing martial artists. Do I want to look at other ways to escape a headlock? Perhaps they are in this book over here.

 

Also, there is the ability of a book to act as a primer for an art. It's easier and cheaper to find a good book on BobsObscureArt and see if travelling for a teacher has your interest than paying to travel first.

 

Further, there's the utility of having the book remind you of what you already know. Say you have already studied WC under someone... the book can serve as a lot of "oh yea! Keep that spring-arm energy. I knew that, don't know when I stopped"

 

The list goes on.

[delta1]

yeah. well thanks. thanks alot.

 

I wasn't saying you are a dummy- just making the point that martial arts are as much mental as they are physical. Bookmarks and pause buttons give you time to think, while libraries and catalogs give you access to a lot more to think about.

[Drunken Monkey]

i'm not an anti-book guy.

 

i'm anti ' i can learn a martial art completely from a book' guy.

 

as for what you can learn from a book.

 

well, in classical terms you are learning the external aspects of the art; what the thing looks like.

 

it might look like wing chun but i can bet you that a guy who only learnt purely from a book will not fight like a wing chun person.

 

we spend god knows how long doing the most mundane thing like punching (as you must have seen me rant on about by now...).

 

how long do you think the average person will spend doing this when he has the complete 'advance form' in front of him in a book.

 

(and you have no idea how often i've come across a book student who doesn't even realise that a punch is the most basic wing chun 'block').

 

my point is there are very strict limits to what you can learn from a book.

 

in most cases the apperance of the moves is not half as important as how the movement is done.

 

it is hard to see from a picture in a book whether a tan sau comes from your centre, from the side, turns on it's way out, turned before extending, elbow pushed in or turned as you rotate wrist etc etc.

 

even in a video where you might be able to see how the movement is done, you still cannot see where the 'force/pressure' behind the movement comes from.

 

sure you can read in a book somewhere that you 'relax the shoulders and let the tan sau come forward as you move the elbow' but are you really going to know 100% that how you are doing it is good enough?

 

the worst thing i have come across is a kid who knew all of the forms and could do some very pretty things in the air with his hands BUT his feel was completely off.

 

we had to take him back down to the basic moves to get his stance+movement balanced, something that he couldn't check having no partner or someone with enough experience to offer good resistance.

 

needless to say his attitude to this wasn't great because after all, he 'knew' all of the forms...

 

anyway, i am just offering one story.

 

i'm sure you can learn about wing chun from a book but i just don't think you can learn wing chun itself.

[JerryLove]

it is hard to see from a picture in a book whether a tan sau comes from your centre, from the side, turns on it's way out, turned before extending, elbow pushed in or turned as you rotate wrist etc etc.

True... but it's pretty easy to write weather it does.

 

It comes down to a couple of things. The ability of the author to correctly and accurately describe the method of performing an act, the ability of the reader to understand it, and the ability of the reader to correct his own performance.

 

I will add from experiences that many martial artists don't know what they do... and this is *another* problem. As an example, I had a teacher at a seminar long ago doing a bassett; he would show how to do it, but many people had problems when the opponent simply rooted the leg. Well, the tacher in question was also placing lateral pressure on the person that he was performing the bassett on; this lateral pressure was suffucuent to counteract the effect of the root.

 

I don't think the instructor would ever try to do the bassett without such an uprooting element; but I also doubt that the instructor consiously realized he was doing it (he certainly never mentioned it). This technique could be taught by a book, but the writer must first realize the entierity of what he is doing (many do not), and be able to describe that in a useful verbage (many cannot) to even have the information *in* the book. Then the reader must comprehend and leard from this info.

 

To be honest, similar problems exist in person (see above)... but to a lesser degree.

sure you can read in a book somewhere that you 'relax the shoulders and let the tan sau come forward as you move the elbow' but are you really going to know 100% that how you are doing it is good enough?

There are two ways this can be accomplished. You can have a good eye and watch yourself compared to the reference, or you can have someone else with a good eye correct you. This is true wheather in person or by book; the major difference being the presumed availability of said "people with good eyes".

 

Of crouse, this also assumes that the failure in question will not cause the technique to fail. If having a stiff shoulder will cause you to tip over when trying to use tan-sau against a strong swing, the error should pop up in drilling as you keep tipping over.

 

In essence, the nature of a book (assuming it's will written) vs a school (assuming it's well run) is to shift responsability for checking even more to the student.

[Rich67]

I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Books and tapes are SUPPLEMENTAL learning aids to actual hands-on training. You can't watch tapes and read a book and be a master. But I think if you have a solid hands-on training program and you want to learn supplemental techniques through books/videos, go for it. As long as you can apply what you see and train with it just like with the stuff you learn in your dojo, I say it's an excellent training aid.

[aznkarateboi]

I think that the main disadvantage of learning from books is that oftentimes a partner will not be available. Also, it is hard to push yourself when there is not a teacher, though this can be done if you have determination. Also it is easy to grow bored of the limited material presented in books.

[martialartsresearcher]

don't worry delta1... i know you just trying to help. see ya