Kanazawa quote

[Ripper]

No, Ripper, my example was with respect to Newton 3. If that is not familiar to you, it is Newton's 3rd law of motion, which, in the most basic terms, states that "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." That is what I actually said. You asked me to explain how applying a downward force resulted in a powerful kime. Obviously my example was not clear to you.

 

The example was bogus.

 

You started out with saying you don't direct your energy to the direction of the attack. You didn't see any use in that. You said you are driving your energy through your feet and not through your fist. But you failed to show us how you direct your energy "through your feet".

 

The only reason you need your feet is as a reaction force. And for that you can apply Newton and your example.

[ESA-Shotokan]

The example was true. You just don't understand what I am talking about and even less what you are talking about. If you are ever in a dojo, ask the sensei how kime is developed from your feet. Thank you.

[Killer Miller]

Well, I guess if moving one inch is moving, then I guess you're correct. But in the general sense, no I wasn't moving. And no, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Karate is all about developing Kime. Kime doesn't require movement with the exception of the amount necessary for total muscle contraction/relaxation. Now, if you need to move to cover distance, that's a whole nother story in terms of breathing, breathing timing, contraction, etc...

 

No, it was not a joke - no trick. I didn't tell the story to try and impress anyone, but to demonstrate the fact that body movement is not necessary to achieve Kime. If you have to cover distance, then fine cover some distance... But the action of Kime is totally different than moving for distance, or another technique that requires distance to be effective. Learn the true meaning of Kime, then perhaps you might have a slight clue about what we are talking about...

 

- Killer Miller -

Now that's the biggest joke I've ever heard.

 

It's just a little trick you were doing, and yes you did move. Just tape that same action and you can let us see you moved.

[Ripper]

The example was true. You just don't understand what I am talking about and even less what you are talking about. If you are ever in a dojo, ask the sensei how kime is developed from your feet. Thank you.

There are always two sides with communication. One side gives information and another side receives the information.

 

The one who receives information maybe isn't getting it (that would be me) because he is too stupid (that's what you are trying to let me feel).

 

On the other side there is one who is giving the information. Maybe you are just not good in giving the information (because you are not good at it or you are just wrong).

 

So please have some patience with me and give another explanation or another example to show what you mean. Because till now you are calling me stupid and I say you are wrong. I don't mind you calling me stupid, but I would like to know if you can give a good explanation for your statement. That's how normal communication goes and I can explain that too.

 

If I was now telling you I bought a dog, you have a picture in your head of some dog. Then you ask me; what kind of dog did you get; a big dog? I say no, a small dog. Then you get another picture in your head. Then you might ask me; is it a dog with long hair or short hair?. Then I say shorthaired. Again, you get another picture in your head. This goes on untill the picture in your head is the same as the picture in my head.

[Ripper]

Well, I guess if moving one inch is moving, then I guess you're correct. But in the general sense, no I wasn't moving. And no, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

Now what is it; are you moving or not? You say that moving one inch isn't moving. I hope you see yourself that you are the one that doesn't have a clue.

[ESA-Shotokan]

Okay, Ripper, if I have been negative then do accept my apologies there.

 

 

Well for my part, Killer Miller is clarifying what I am failing to explain.

 

Bruce Lee called kime the one inch punch - I just didn't want to use that example here, but what Killer Miller is saying is very true. The only difference of course is he used a vertical fist and yes, there is a movement of one inch. The point is, if you perform a standard oizuki stepping punch, when you complete the step with the punch, kime does not apply until that split second when the target is met.

 

If you rest with your "relaxed" fist touching an opponent and apply kime, you should hit that person as though you had performed a full motion punch.

 

You can try this with a punch bag - as people are not always too happy to have you hit them, so many times.

 

Now if you do some standard breathing exercises first, you want to work on directing the tensing of your muscles downwards. Breath out very slowly and loudly, so the air is forced loudly out of your throat. You should almost sound like you are being strangled. Don't make a kiai, just press your lungs tight, stomach muscles hard and keeping your legs slightly bent, have the feeling that your shoulder muscles are pushing downwards and compressing your whole body.

 

Do it very slowly - the outward breath should take a minimum of 10 seconds. Then do it faster in stages, until the whole process takes less than a second.

 

When you can feel your body reach maximum tension, then try doing the same thing but this time with your fist touching the punch/kick bag.

 

You are looking to achieve a situation where the downward tension of your body is rebound upwards and out through the fist. To an onlooker, it will just look like a forward punching motion but what it wont be is a push! You never want to push a punch, that is not a punch.

 

You cannot learn kime in a couple of hours or years, for that matter. You can work on it though. In a hundred punches, I may feel like I achieved a good kime maybe once or twice BUT when you do, you can feel the difference and it is one of those things that you want to feel again. It is an incredible action.

 

Some people just punch with their body weight and yes, it will hurt you, but 8/10 times, you'll go back for more. Hit someone with kime and they will back off or they may come back and once hit again, they'll be off!

 

Again, application of kime has only been more apparent and in demand since I joined the ESA so I am rediscovering (and learning) again so many aspects of shotokan which I just took for granted in the past. In the past, I have tried to master this side of karate, especially with the basic punch by copying my senior sensei, Andy Sherry: now you want to see a punch "focused" then watch him.

 

Just get that feeling that when you hit the target, you don't need to follow through. You are not stopping the power but instead are focusing that power in a split second inside an area of an inch squared. That is kime.

 

I hope that is a bit more clear, Ripper. As I say, it is hard to explain this in writing as there are so many aspects to kime that words fail me. I will think more about training here and try to come up with a further example to clarify matters.

 

[Ripper]

Now THAT's an explanation! Thank you for your patience and time, ESA.

 

But.............I'm sorry but I have to disagree (I know, I know, I'm hardheaded ).

 

There is no reason for tensing your muscles on impact. This myth is probably due to the fact that a lot of Shotokan training is in the air. This causes many to tense on impact to improve their performance. In fact they are not. This way you are only weakening your technique.

 

The strongest way to, let's say punch, is that you only use the muscles needed for the punch to get to the target and follow through (for example like a baseball player) and nothing else. Any other tension only makes your punch slower and shortens your punch, making your punch weaker.

I hope that is a bit more clear, Ripper. As I say, it is hard to explain this in writing as there are so many aspects to kime that words fail me.

I know the feeling; for me it is even more difficult as I have to talk/write in a foreign language.

[ESA-Shotokan]

The strongest way to, let's say punch, is that you only use the muscles needed for the punch to get to the target and follow through (for example like a baseball player) and nothing else. Any other tension only makes your punch slower and shortens your punch, making your punch weaker.

 

I see what you are saying but when I apply kime, it is for a moment at contact - for the rest of the punch and immediately afterwards, you are relaxed.

 

When you practice this slowly, you likewise are relaxed but tense for that split second when applying the technique. Hence the action is fast and fluid.

 

I'll be doing hell of a lot more training in this with the ESA so will supply updates as I progress.

 

Your English is very good, by the way. The only other language I can write/speak is French, to a certain degree but always have to look up the odd word or two as I go.

 

[Killer Miller]

Sorry, but very wrong...

 

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If all muscles are tensed/contracted at the time of impact, the opposite reaction force is directed back through your body, to the floor, back through your body, then force applied to your target.

 

Now, if you tense only your arm, and lets say that you do not contract or tense your leg muscles, when the reaction force is encountered through you body, and your legs are weak (or not tensed), then that connection to the floor is lost at the weakest point of your body - your legs... That reaction force is now "not" returned through your body, nor back to your target, and thus a weak punch without force. So if you were to punch a brick wall (not that anybody would want to do so), or a 4x4, your body would be pushed backwards at the time of impact - or broken bones somewhere.

 

This is the importance of Kime at the time of impact. All muscles tensed or contracted applies the force/speed generated into pure force and energy. If any part of your body is weak, or not tensed/contracted, at the time of impact, the weakest part of your body will give away and absorb "all" of the reaction force generated by your punch or kick.

 

Those are the facts regardless of whether you want to believe that or not.

 

- Killer Miller -

Now THAT's an explanation! Thank you for your patience and time, ESA.

 

But.............I'm sorry but I have to disagree (I know, I know, I'm hardheaded ).

 

There is no reason for tensing your muscles on impact. This myth is probably due to the fact that a lot of Shotokan training is in the air. This causes many to tense on impact to improve their performance. In fact they are not. This way you are only weakening your technique.

 

The strongest way to, let's say punch, is that you only use the muscles needed for the punch to get to the target and follow through (for example like a baseball player) and nothing else. Any other tension only makes your punch slower and shortens your punch, making your punch weaker.

[ESA-Shotokan]

It is one of things you have to practice to appreciate what is going on. Words can start to describe it but you have to work on the application yourself to feel the kime.