need safety - what art?

[jeffrogers]

No offense to the more traditional arts. I take Traditional arts as well as MMA martial arts.

 

the guy wanted to learn to fight quick. It takes awhile longer with TMA arts in my opinion. YOu end up going through alot of traditional stuff. Stance work like horse stance and other stuff depending on what style you do. Best thing to do is do an art based around fighting if you want to fight quick. Meaning he needs to go hit bags develop his power develop his speed. And get hit at so he can learn to get out of the way. alot of TMA styles they will step into the punch hold there arm out there while the opponent does the technique on them. As well as the fact that that alot of times done with little to know resitance by the oppenet. There for you don't move as faster as you would say boxing. were guy his hiting you pulling his punch back and you got ot move counter and do your own combinations.

 

Your fighting ability as far as power speed, distance, timing, not getting hit, will go alot quicker. Plus moves are kept simple to a few punches. Same thing with Mauy thai or other arts were they go in and fight. As for BJJ or some wreslting you go in and drill then you go against an oppenent who does resistance against you trying to get you in a sub also. It helps you fine out yoru motor skills gives the timing when to counter.

 

Each martial art is good. but if you have a certain perpouse in mind to why you want to take it. Not every art will work for you. I hear on this forum in general by alot of people saying it isn't the art its the person. All though they have a certain point to a degree. But in all truth it is the art also.

 

Your not going to get to do alot of kicking and diffrent types of kicks doing shotokan as you would taekwondo because they both have a diffrent trianing emphasis. Your not going to get good at fast mulitdue of hand strikes by doing taekwondo. You would be better off if that is what to do. Is doing kenpo.

 

Same thing for fighting. do boxing, Mauy thai, wrestling, BJJ or other combat arts that are based around that. I know they say all arts are for combat or almost all arts.

 

Maybe they were at a time. but you get alot that are focused on spirtual englightment or on forms, techniques agasint an opponent with little or no resisteance maybe some light sparrring and after a few years maybe more contact. It takes awhijle to get good. Ilearned alot of stuff through tma. pressure points, cool wrist locks and throws, alot of diffrent stikes. like tiger claw, crane beak. but all that stuff is very hard to pull off. I didn't realize why until I did Jiu-Jitsu and worked out a little bit with some boxers. You need resistance training.

 

You can stand up and move y our arms like your doing a push up in the air. for as long as you want. you can do thousands of reps your arm will get stronger alittle bit. But its not going be like the muscle gains you would get if you just get on the ground and do push ups having your body weight to support. You need the resistance. And I find alot of TMA arts don't provide that. thats just my opinion.

 

-Jeff

[Drunken Monkey]

as far as i know, the one punch-breaks are the very basic exercises of the traditional way of training.

 

the point of this is so that you get to know the moves quickly and applying them becomes second nature.

 

part of the exercise is that you play with the moves you know and see how quickly you can swith between them and if you react to changes (i.e how flexible you are)

 

after this, you (both) can go in harder and harder whilst your training partner adds more and varies the type of strike.

 

this is supposed to lead to full on sparring/fighting.

 

if the only thing you do in your 'traditional' art is one punch drills then maybe you should look elsewhere.

 

i say that it is down to the person because at the end of the day, styles deal with punches and kicks and whatnots.

 

you are learning to block, parry, deflect these things.

 

it really is up to you how hard you want to take it.

 

you can spend fifteen years doing something but if you don't put the effort in, you will never get to be as good as the guy who asks for everything by a factor of fifteen.

 

and the point of punching and doing other moves in the air is not to build up strength.

 

there are plenty of ways to do that.

 

their aim is to get you used to actually doing/completing the move.

 

part of it is to build speed. part of it is to further ingrain the moves into you (and a little to see if you really are dedicated to learning. after all, if you don't have the drive to do a little air punching which helps you form no end, why teach you any more?)

 

if you want to build power go do some weights.

 

the only probelm i have with this is that if yo add weights to your punching(or running or whatever) the immediate feeling of extra speed/power is false and soon wears off.

 

on the other hand, doing weights on their own does build muscle mass but often this actually slows down your movements.

[jeffrogers]

You have your points drunken Monkey. I know what those drills are done for. As far as puncing to the air. Boxers shadow box. But least thre movements are more realist then standing in a horse stance, or something to that nature. Punching mindlessly from the hip.

 

Although there are points to be emphasized from that training I feel the actually drills of that training are over emphasised instead of going on to more advanced. For example. Punching from the hip in a foward stance, using a reverse punch. Japense, and Okinawan styles. in "General" not all of them. Are big off of that. It has its place. for ides that same motion may not really be a punch but teaching ideas of pushing and pulling, using both sides of the body there for generating more power. keeping the arms close to the body and punches hopefully aligned straight. There for you take the concepts and that feeling and bring them to were your hands are on guard. you keept them close elbows in and punching straight. Using both sides of the body by using the shoulder rotation as well as lats and tighting of both arms on impact. but keeping your not punching arm close by your head so you can keeep from getting hit in that area.

 

I don't feel air drills are bad. But should be changed to more realistic drilling instead of the "look" of that style.

 

The air drills or shodow boxing should be balanced out with good pad hitting. both focus pad hitting as well as heavy bad. I agree with physical conditioning and using plyometrics and calestincs even some weights but not alot of heavy weights you can gain more muscle mass yes. but as you said slow you done. Getting more toned muscles and functional strength is good. but all that don't matter if you aren't getting regular practice hitting the heavy bag. That the proff weather or not your punching correctly. Your wrist colopase or the results on your impact power on the bag will tell you that. So hitting the bag and focusing on using your whole body for more power is definelty needed. You can hit a person like that all the time no one will won't to train with you. Or you will start to seriously injure people. You definetly can't gain power punching to the air all the time. You can work on your speed and form. But for impact penatration power. You just won't get it from that.

 

 

 

As for partner work out. You need partner putting resistance. I am not saying just one punch. I seen alot of karate stylist practice there techniques and throw a punch but leave it out there for the person to do the technique that is okay but why let them do the wrist lock if they been doing it for last two years same way only thing they gain is some detali to lock the wrist better and to be come more faster at the technique thats fine. But won't work very well or as well in more of a real scenerio were a person is resisting. so maybe if the guy puts resistance against the wrist lock trys to pull away, counters what not. gives the other guy more of a change of scenerio were he has ot adapt and make his moves work more effectively

 

As well as throwing multite more then one strikes helps also. I see your points. but I am trying to get across mine that a person needs resistance training. Yes over time you can get okay skills by the training y ou were talking about but were talking about learning to fight quick. I am just trying to emphasis got to havre resistancee training with your partner. Got to have physical conditioning to keep your cardio and muscular strength up. Got to work on a simple moves in ranges of grappling and striking. More moves you complex the mind with less time you got to work on the simple one that will work better of for you to fight quicker.

 

 

 

Just from my experience. Take martail art because you want to learn self defense, have more confidence, enjoy the style, get more excercise great! take style you enjoy and have fun

 

you want to learn to fight quicker well. Then going to persay traditioinal style isn't going to get you there as quick as other types of training. Just my point of view.

 

-Jeff

[Icetuete]

where exactly do you draw the line between self defense and fighting @jeff? since Munkyboy wants safety on the street, i guess the "fighting ability" that he wants is supposed to serve self defense purpose.

[jeffrogers]

I don't quite fallow your question. Could you pleaes rephrase it?

 

-Jeff

[Icetuete]

what people mean with "fighting" very often differs in this forum. some mean 'fighting' in the ring (tournaments, rules etc) other mean the traditional 'art of war' and a minority like myself mean beat up this dude that wants to make trouble because he does not like your face. sorry, for the language, but thats basically what fighting on the street is about, while self defense for me means fend off an attack like shoulder/hand grab, and how to get out of certain situation (attack with stick, attack from behind) etc.

 

when i say learn to fight, i mean learn how to handle a fight in all ranges. from kicking, elbowing, punching to closer contact.

 

i think we have a different understanding of the word "fighting". that was what i wanted to say

[jeffrogers]

How do you suppose we have diffrent ideas on whatw is fighting. I am talking about also learning to fight from all ranges.

[Drunken Monkey]

and then there's the point that punching from a horse stance isn't the only punch excercise.

 

basically, you name it, we do it.

 

the first thing we have you do is to punch in stance.

 

it gets you used to the feeling of the stance and you develop your balance in stance.

 

then we have you turning and punch.

 

gets you used to pivoting+punching without moving your centre of mass (balance).

 

then we have you step/shift and punch (that is every type of step/shift and combination thereof) for developing smooth and easy movement+turning.

 

at each stage we introduce you to corresponding punching drills with partner.

 

then we have you do all of this against a bag.

 

what you seem to be saying that the only punching exercises you used to do were punching in horse, which just isn't true (for us at least).

 

on the other hand you seem to be suggesting that pnching a bag is better and thus the air drills are not needed which i simply don't agree with.

 

my problem with letting guys punch a bag from the word go is that they lose the point of the exercise and it turns into 'who can make the loudest noise'.

[jeffrogers]

Not really. You hit the bag to develop power. I also believe in air drills but I prefer more of boxing type training. I see people spend more emphasis on the stance drills and other such things. Stuff that isn't really needed to make you a better fighter Quick notice the word quick.

 

I do believe in air drills but not that the 75 percent of the time most the classes. I believe in air drills as far as shadow boxing. But I seen right now I am using example of karate. Were punch horse stance bring the other hand back the side while the punching hand goes out. You can start on more efficent stance drills, hand postions.

 

I know you can use the that method for getting across certain concepts. But after student gets the idea he can change the movements and then implent the idea but I dont' see that to often they just refersese back to that type of training. least hard styles. I will use shotokan as an example.

 

But if you talking fighting quickly there is better mothods.

 

Owe and finally asnwer what you think i was getting at with the air drills. Taht is good the way you train. There should be balance between bag drills and air drills for proper form and working just speed as well as other ideas.

 

As for bag hitting for a nice noise. Well depends you talking about partners holding pads or a heavy bag. Heavy bag is for power. Parner hoding pads is for focus drilling. Don't see how the noise is much involved in it. Unless your talking about hoding those nice centruy tkd clapper pads were they make a nice noise if you hit it.

 

-Jeff

[Practice is the key _]

You seem to know alot of style of martial arts, heres my advice forget the styles train all forms of martial arts your'll never earned your perfect goal if you only do one style.