SHOULD Christians do MA?

[vashogun]

The Old Testament is rife with tales of combat, and it even has its own strongman story in Sampson. Most cultures have had to deal with combat at some point or another, and most of these cultures have religion that help to set the morals and guidelines of their culture. Fighting just happens, and the culture can reflect what they are willing to fight for.

Very true, but note you said "Old Testement". Christianity is a religion based on the New Testement, I'm sorry if this is offensive its not meant to be but Christianity only pulls from the old testement when its convienent. The "bible" as we know it didn't exist before the council of nicea, when it was politically decided which books would be included in a single volume. Christian culture, not necissairily religion but Christian Culture, has its roots in early medevial europe. Torah Observant Beleivers and Messianic Jews are a seperate, and some would argue much older matter altogether. Jewish culture has a different set of standards from Christian culture. They share many similarities, but there moral code is not the same.

However again I point out that I don't beleive combat is much of an issue for christians. Christians generally come from the conservative right, not all but simply a large portion to a majority. Combat is a common topic in this political group and its usally not viewed as anti-christian. If that is in line with the moral code set down by their scripture or not is up to the individual christian.

I beleive the real problem a christian would have with martial arts are its connections with Eastern Religions and philosophies. In paticular, American Christians may have a harder time than Christians from other countries. Thsi is because American values are deeply tied with Christian values in the United States. Here, the good and the will of the individual is seen as the most important factor, where as in other territories, Asia espicially, the good of society and being in harmony with the rest of society are more important than individual will.

I disagree with the concept of Chi or Ki being a christian idea or that Chi/Ki has no religious connotations. Ignoring the source material does not make the source material go away. Just as ignoring old testement law that orders a disrespectful child to be stoned doesn't mean it isn't there. Chi has deep religious roots in Taoism and the Chinese Folk Religion as well as almost every other asian religion and philosophy. You can draw comparrisons, and you can even take the stance that all religions are a path to God and are therefore intrensitly intertwined if you like. I do. If you want to claim that Chi/Ki isn't magic thats fine to, it certainly isn't at all similar to a pre-christian europe's view of magic. The best you can say is that chi or ki works regardless of your beleif system, which even if you don't beleive in it by its sorce deffinition this is true, it requires no commitment on your part to exist.

I don't know if this is commforting or debilitating to debating christians, but if there is some non-christian concept in martial arts that is a stumbling block you may note that all of your holidays were originally pagan holidays, so it isn't the first time a methodology or system has been converted by a culture for its own use. Sharing ideas between groups is how the world evolves.

[bushido_man96]

That is a good post.

I am aware that the Old Testament isn't how things are really done anymore, but I think it is an important link to how things were, and where some beliefs come from. The Ten Commandments are another of what is taken from the Old by those who like to use it as a moral code of conduct, which wouldn't be much unlike those codes seen in many MA schools.

However, thanks for the information. I'm not up to snuff like I used to be, so it is fun to compare notes at times.

[vashogun]

Sure. And you can draw lots of comparisons like I said. I'm an eccliptic taoist who used to be heavily involved first in Christianity, namely babtist, and later a Torah Observant Beleiver. I still beleive in many of the things I did but I saw them as stepping stones on my own personal spiritual path. Because of this non-laymen experince I find many comparisons. One in paticular I point out to Christians who often ask me about Taosim and how I view christianity now is a precept in which Lao Tzu explains that "Only he who is willing to give his whole life for the world is worthy to be steward of the world." A very Christ like image.

Something else I do find interesting with the Chi/Ki concept is that every culture seems to have a religious connotation to breathing. The act of breathing is very important to Asian religious doctrine, including taoism. The Egyptians beleived inhaling light could bring about immortality. Christians and Jews both describe the act of creation of life as recieving "The breath of life" directly from God into our nostrils as described in Genesis. There are many base similarities.

My world view, and I would never ask that anyone have the same one unless they were compelled to, is that spirituality is an important very personal thing. Even within one very isolated denomination, lets say for controveries sake the Pentecostal Church and its off-shots the Assembly of God, in just one church in that one specific denomination of that one religion that uses the same exact version of the same books of the bible you are unlikely to find two people who beleive the exact same thing. Religious research interest me but in the end the individual always decides what they wish to beleive. And in that regard, I ALWAYS support orthadoxy. even the Dahli Lama (sp?) said that "If you were born a christian, raised a christian, and are comfortable being a christian, you should remain a christian." I beleive that it is GOOD that there are many different religions, and I understand that contradicts doctrines of these specific religions, but se la ve. Spirtuality is a good thing. And these religions often bring about there own set of skills. Jews tend to be excellent researchers, Christians are experts at world politcts, Taoist like myself pride ourselves in our ability to be frugal and economical in our use of money, time, and energy. Wiccans (who are sincere, as many I have met are, and do not treat there faith as a fad) are excellent conservationalist and have made great strides as a faith to clean up the enviroment.

My rule of thumb is your religion is the right one for you so long as it does not lead you to hatred or bigotry. I also feel martial arts is ultimately a way to avoid or minimise the amount of violence. I make a comparrison to a discovery I found when studying Iaido. To me it was the art of sheathing the sword more than it was drawing it.

But because I support orthadoxy I feel that if you beleive your faith, your personal faith, prevents you from doing a martial art, so be it. Martial Arts build great character but they are not the only things that do. Not all people are warriors. Not all martial artist are really warriors for that mater. I enjoy Forest Morgan's view on warriors from "Living the Martial Way" in that regard.

Martial Arts are an important part of my spirituality. But that doesn't mean they have to be a part of anyone elses. For me, the word Tao most closely translates to 'path' and I would never expect anyone elses path to be the same as mine. In questioning "Should Christians do Martial Arts", the answer lies with the individual christian just as every other part of every other doctrine in every other faith does.

[sensei8]

Should a Christian do the martial arts? Why not! I'm a Christian and I'm also a martial artist.

My sister's a Jehovah's Witness, and along time ago I went with her to the Kingdom Hall and when I was speaking with one of the elders, I was told that I can't join until I quit Karate. I told him that that would never happen. That was 33 years ago!

Religions shouldn't tell me what I can or can't do because I think man makes scripture fit into whatever the situation is.

It doesn't matter what man may say. It doesn't matter what religion may say. It doesn't matter what your pastor says. It only matters what Jesus says!

[Shizentai]

I believe Jesuit priests used to study swordsmanship as part of their theological education, so yeah, Catholics are in too. ^_^

[Dark Planet]

Of course Catholics are in! Dominicans (used to use quarter staves); the still existing Knights of Malta, the St. John Hospitalizes, the now defunct Knights Templar (though there is a resurgent movement)- not to mention all the Fencing schools! King St. Louis IX, St. Sebastian, St. Martin of Tours, etc.

I think that there is not a separation of religion and the martial arts. Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, all of these are VERY influential in martial arts. "Dojo" is a growth from these religious halls. Christianity fits in well, too.

[JusticeZero]

What I do has strong catholic/candomble ties, but that doesn't make it a religious observation.

[KarateGeorge]

I'm a Christian and a Martial Artist. I don't see any reason why Christianity and Martial Arts should be mutually exclusive. I know many Christians can find it to be a stumbling block, but I think generally in those cases it mostly comes from a lack of understanding and exposure to the world of martial arts.

Someone was mentioning earlier in this thread (oneheart, I think) that a lot of the concern for many Christians comes from the elements of Eastern philosophy. I'd agree with that, and in those cases, there are plenty of instructors within styles who don't focus on those portions of their art, and even styles of martial arts as a whole that don't have spiritual elements to them and focus more on the physical. It really does come down to the dojo, the instructor and the individual student and finding what's right for you as a student.

[Bubba]

The attacker, now laying on the ground, looked up to the missionary and said, "That wasn't very Christian like."

The missionary replied, "We believe in the laying on of hands."

[The BB of C]

Bubba. In laying of hands there is power.