Akima Posted January 31, 2004 Posted January 31, 2004 Spookey, Choi didn't just meet with the North, He moved in. I really don't understand how S. Korea's turbulant political history appiles here, other than to, again, help support my point that the politicans have rewritten history to erase what they do not like. Sush as erasing Japnese influence from the record.
Spookey Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 " How it applies here" Akima, Gen. Choi moved in? He maintained a resident of Canada until he returned to his homeland to die... also, why is it okay for Kim to give million+ dollars to DPRK but a problem when Choi opens up operations in DPRK...did the Mc Donald's Corp. commit treason when they opened up shop in Moscow? No! I fail to see the problem...please offer your point of view! TAEKWON! Do not defend against an attacker, but rather become the attacker...Destroy the enemy!TAEKWON!
Akima Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 Why was choi in Canada? When did Mcdonnals open in Moscow? Your replies have drifted very far from my original point that TKD and other Korean arts have a garbled and often politizied history.
John G Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 In many ways TKD historiography is at the same point Karate historiography was twenty or so years ago. At that time most of us believed the following common stories: -Karate was developed by the poor Okinawan peasantry to defend against the Samurai. -Karate weapons were developed from farm equipment; the sai was a plow, the nunchaku was a rice flail, etc.... -Makiwara training originated because the peasants needed to be able to punch through the heavy Samurai body armour. -Line training, and kumite were traditional training methods used by Karate masters throughout the centuries. -Motobu Choki was an uncouth, unlettered thug who stood at least six feet tall, and spoke in unintelligible grunts. Do any of these sound familiar? They were popular stories of Karate "history' as proclaimed by Urban, Haines, Kim, etc... and have all been proven to be false. Are the realities behind these stories more prosaic? Probably, but in may ways they enhance rather than take away from Karate as a whole. Perhaps its a good time to start looking for the truths to the origins of TKD and throw the fallacies of the past away. I agree equaninimus. The only difficulty is finding out what the real truth is, and once found, would we dare tell others? The truth behind TKD is much the same as any other martial art taught to those of the privileged. Respectfully, John G Jarrett III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do
Spookey Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 Akima, I originally engaged you based on a comment you made regarding Gen. Choi and DPRK. Your comment led me to believe that you were stating that Gen. Choi was wrong for going to DPRK. Was I mistaken in that assumption? If so, I wish for you to reinterate the purpose of your post that I first responded to! However, if my assumption is correct then I am requesting that you offer greater explanation! These forums are for the purpose of debate, correct. Furthermore, you stated that all we have learned is political *...what knowledge do you have that make you more informed than me. And in the spirit of humanity would it not be respectable to assist others with the knowledge you posses to reeducate us in our misinformed beliefs! Finally, please explain why Gen. Choi going to DPRK is such a problem to someone as informed as yourself! TAEKWON! Do not defend against an attacker, but rather become the attacker...Destroy the enemy!TAEKWON!
Akima Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 Spookey, May I ask How old you are? My comment was not with regards to Choi being right or wrong. It was more to point out that many TKD schools that teach bad histories tend to leave out the part about him moving to North Korea. Let's examine the North Korea thing a little more. Imagine you live in a country that has been brutilized by 50 years of occupation. Then just as freedom and liberty begin to take place, your own people come running over your land to place you under another tyranical regime. Years later, as you begin to rebuild on the ashes...again...one of you more celebrated leaders begins playing nice with your most recent invaders. Regardless of his intentions, think about it. Then think about it from a political point of view as leaders try to stablize a war torn land, and a hot spot for nuclear threat from two empires with you in the middle. They cannot have that and Choi falls out of favor, goes to Canada to avoid persecution, and possible prosecution. By then returning to North Korea, for whatever reason, all Choi did was give validity to the fears and cliams that forced him to leave in the first place. Choi's biggest mistake, was timming. He may have been a communist, maybe not. But the leaders of the South, and the pople of the south were not ready to play nice with the North. They were still cleaning up the mess they left. This is why I asked about mcDonnalds in Moscow. As I recall that was done in the 1990's. I do not think it would have happend, say, 6 months after the Cuban missle crisis. Finally, Here's an article I have looked up regarding the actual question of this thread "Is TKD considered Karate?" http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/news_view.asp?news_no=776
ninjanurse Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 May I just interject? Just the facts please, no personal slams and sarcasm-it spoils the meal! "A Black Belt is only the beginning."Heidi-A student of the artsTae Kwon Do,Shotokan,Ju Jitsu,Modern Arnishttp://the100info.tumblr.com/
Spookey Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 Akima, "to avoid persecution"...yes, by a man he once helped sentence to death...HISTORY. What happened to the president afterwards, or the next after him...North of the 38th parallel is not the only porion of Korea that has had a volitile political history since the end of the Japanese occupation. As relates to my age... I am old enough to form an honest opinion of right and wrong! TAEKWON! Spookey Do not defend against an attacker, but rather become the attacker...Destroy the enemy!TAEKWON!
tufrthanu Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 I would just like to interject that before the current crisis with North Korea a poll released on CNN said that most South Koreans were in favor of reunification with the North. I think Chois communist politics or not are regardless. It is the anti Japanese sentiment that led to the various "korean born" histories of tkd. Long Live the Fighters!
John G Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 It makes no difference whether General Choi was a nationalist, communist, socialist, democrat, republican or dictator, that is unless of course your definition of a martial art is that to which ones political affiliation lay. Although politics has shaped the direction of TKD from its inception, one should be cautious not to throw the baby out with the bath water based upon political ideologies alone. TKD (generically speaking for the purpose of this discussion) was at first introduced as a tool to be used in hand-to-hand combat by its fledging Korean army. Instead of re-inventing the wheel the Koreans decided to beg, borrow or steal from other martial arts of the time to fulfil their immediate requirements. It was at a latter date that politics both private and national, influenced not only the direction of TKD but also the writing / re-writing of its history’s and systems. To think that ones martial art is pure is delusional. Re-engineering systems and re-writing histories to suit a militaristic, nationalistic, or a private agenda is nothing new, and not exclusively the domain of Korean martial arts or those arts developed within the Asia pacific region. As a martial artist it is important to keep an open mind and seek the truth no matter how disdainful it may be. Therefore “Is TKD considered Karate?” the answer depends on what version of TKD history you want me to tell you, and what your definition or version of Karate is. The scope of the answer is same as if I were to ask the question “is Karate considered a Chinese martial art” Respectfully, John G Jarrett III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do
Recommended Posts