This has always puzzled me about TKD. Explanation?

[John G]

If we have ITF TKD, or any other "sport" form of martial arts, where the obvious emphasis is on sport, not self-defense....do you think that it's still accurate to consider it a martial art?

 

Ouch!! Shorinryu Sensei, WTF TKD is considered more sports orientated than ITF.. Typo I’m sure

In all sincerity I am a member of an ITF school and we have poor punching skills. Tae Kwon Do is primarily a kicking art from what I see.

 

The master evaluating people at testing is looking for combos in kicking.

 

Since we mostly learn to kick and work 90% on that aspect. The logic I hear is a kick is more powerful than a punch so you can do more damage quicker. It was explained to me that we can't punch to the face because it's to easy. They want us to be able to kick high enough to kick the head.

 

Not many people in the adult class can kick that high so I don't understand it. I never kick for the head ever because it's too easy to miss. I am shown some punches like the ridgehand,etc that are never allowed in sparring. After I get my blackbelt in 6 months I am shopping for another art.

 

At your present level (1st Gup) you SHOULD have been taught 10 stances, 23 blocks, 20 punches/strikes and 5 kicks from your tulls/katas/patterns alone.

 

5 kicks represents at best 10% of your training requirements, if your instructor spends 90% of your time teaching a handful of kicks you would be well advised to get out now and find an instructor who will teach you the necessary requirements.

 

It is indeed disturbing (although not surprising) to think that standards have slipped to this degree. If you wish, privately email me your instructors name and dojang and I will do what I can to have this matter rectified so others don’t get fooled into wasting their time and money at your dojung.

The answer to all of this is very obvious, to me at least. Get rid of TKD at the olympics and put in full contact kickboxing in it's place. Not the Muay Thai stuff necessarily, but more like the original PKA. Gloves on the hands and foot pads. Full contact kicks and punches scored similar to the boxing events. Then almost all striking MA people would be able to try out and there wouldn't be this stupid discussion over what makes what look bad.

 

It makes no difference what you replace TKD in the Olympics with, if it involves rules and there’s someone judging; it’s a sport, full stop.

 

In the end, martial arts is what YOU want it to be; as an participant it can range from living, eating and breathing war, death and destruction through to winning a gold medal at the Olympics.

 

Fortunately most of us are some where in the middle.

 

Respectfully,

[tufrthanu]

I don't agree with that John. Olympic sparring is not what most people train for. It is very limited in terms of overall martial arts techniques. Full contact kickboxing would eliminate the current non punching rule set. It would also give a more even playing field to those that cant reach the head with their feet.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Ouch!! Shorinryu Sensei, WTF TKD is considered more sports orientated than ITF.. Typo I’m sure

 

ITF...WTF...WWF...AFL/CIO...sorry. You're talking to a guy that can't keep the days of the week straight sometimes!

[John G]

I don't agree with that John. Olympic sparring is not what most people train for. It is very limited in terms of overall martial arts techniques. Full contact kickboxing would eliminate the current non punching rule set. It would also give a more even playing field to those that cant reach the head with their feet.

 

I agree, its not what I train for, as one only use a handful of techniques when sparring.

 

However the general public perception is that our sparring represents the martial art. And I have to admit that it appears (from posts to these forums) that the sporting side of TKD is taking over the MA side of TKD

 

Some years ago I was told why WTF TKD was included into the Olympics from a well known international ITF master when asked about ITF and the Olympics. Needless to say that this story revolves around money, power and prestige.

 

It’s no secret that ITF and WTF have been at each other throats for years to become the “one and only”, “truest of true”, original, Korean martial art. It’s also no secret that the Japanese also wanted another one of their martial arts included into the Olympics.

 

The only reason why TKD is in the Olympics today is because of the constant pressure placed on the IOC by both WTF and ITF and more importantly by the Japanese IOC delegate at that time.

 

WTF from its beginnings was constructed not to look like ITF, therefore WTF sparing rule were modified not only to look different, but also to bias towards smaller framed Korean fighters. ITF also has this bias but to a lesser extent.

 

See your average western fighter has longer arms and legs than you average Korean, so by taking out or reducing the points scored for punches half the problem was solved.

 

Another fact is that taller people tend to telegraph middle/high kicks to a greater extent than that of a smaller person, smaller framed people can move quicker around a taller opponent. This is why TKD sparing rules are the way they are.

 

So why were the Japanese so adamant that TKD should be included in the Olympics? Simple, It’s easier to change the rules of a second Asian MA sport than to introduce a new one. That is to say, allow WTF to showcase their form of sparing (and we all know what that looks like). Then let the ITF “have a go”. Once the ITF rules are in place claim that since ITF looks like and feels like Karate why not have the real thing.

 

Anyway, so much for the Olympic martial arts conspiracy, time will tell.

 

If anyone would like to put forward their Martial Art for inclusion in the Olympics to replace TKD you’re more than welcome. Sooner or latter the MA defence side will cave into the money orientated sporting side.

 

No disrespect was meant for those athletes who have dedicated years of blood sweat and tears, training and competing in the Olympics. These people should be congratulated for representing their respective countries in these events

ITF...WTF...WWF...AFL/CIO...sorry. You're talking to a guy that can't keep the days of the week straight sometimes!

 

No problems, its that time of the year

 

I have grown to respect your opinions on these forums and don’t mind the occasional dig once in a while. Most of the time I feel you already know the answers to the questions you pose and just want people to open their minds and research rather than trolling or starting flame wars.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I have grown to respect your opinions on these forums and don’t mind the occasional dig once in a while. Most of the time I feel you already know the answers to the questions you pose and just want people to open their minds and research rather than trolling or starting flame wars.

 

I appreciate that, and honestly, it wasn't meant as a dig against TKD. I try to respect the differances between all the different arts, but I make no apologies if there's something about particular arts that I don't care for, or aspects of those arts anyway.

 

True, I don't care for TKD very much because of the way that I view the martial arts. I'm an old traditionalist that feels the martial arts are for protecting yourself, or your loved ones..or a total stranger if you want to...on the street. I do feel that competition (aka tournaments) are fine, and I've enjoyed judging and referring open ones since 1980, but I view tournaments are for "play" only and put no emphasis on them or preparation for them in my classes.

 

Granted, I have not seen ALL TKD classes in the world, so my opinions are based on those that I have seen within Montana mostly, and a few here and there in my travels..and in my opinion, the major issue I have with TKD starts on day one of training. Their basics and fundamentals techniques are very poor and unrealistic.

 

I'd better stop there with TKD, but I have issues with San Soo and Parker's Kenpo also. Is shorinryu perfect? No..of course not. But I feel that it is much more realistic from a "martial arts" standpoint than many systems I see out there being taught today.

 

I have a wonderful story about an ex-student of mine that went to from my class to TKD, and what he told me one day. If anybody would care to hear it, PM me and I'll share it with you.

 

Mods...I'm sorry if I'm getting my thread way off topic here.

[Toast]

The simple reason for no hand - head contact in Olympic TKD sparring is for the simple fact - sport....

 

Its just the rules... just like in NASKA you have certain rules and plus in black belt division, KO is one way to win a match, and hands aren't the best thing to do that...and through time, the hands probably were pulled out for that reason....

 

I'm one who is experience in both Olympic and Open Sparring, both hold different values and both hold many important concepts...

[MadCapoeirista]

I don't agree with that John. Olympic sparring is not what most people train for. It is very limited in terms of overall martial arts techniques. Full contact kickboxing would eliminate the current non punching rule set. It would also give a more even playing field to those that cant reach the head with their feet.

 

A more even playing field? Most (I'd say over 90%) scoring kicks in WTF competition are to the body. I competed seriously for 2 1/2 years and have only been kicked in the head twice and have only kicked someone in the head twice.

WTF from its beginnings was constructed not to look like ITF, therefore WTF sparing rule were modified not only to look different, but also to bias towards smaller framed Korean fighters. ITF also has this bias but to a lesser extent.

 

I don't agree with this at all. To accept this you must believe that all arts, wether with a sportive focus or not, coming from Asia are biased towards smaller framed individuals. Do you? Another thing, I'm a short heavyweight mens fighter...I'm 5'9". I usually had to fight against people at least 2-3" taller than me, most of the time they were taller than that 2". I agree that I was a tiny bit faster, most of the time but fighting someone with longer limbs means you have to pass through their striking range just to get into your own, if you can make it. There's more to fighting than speed. I'm sure you agree.

 

Do you have experience fighting in an Olympic style tournament(against someone much taller than you even)? Just curious. Most WTF heavyweight fighters in the BB men's division are not slow by any means and control the ring very well making it hard to move around them.

[John G]

I don't agree with this at all. To accept this you must believe that all arts, wether with a sportive focus or not, coming from Asia are biased towards smaller framed individuals. Do you?

 

My comments were directed toward ITF/WTF TKD sportive sparring specifically.

 

No one yet has given an good explanation on why fist/hand techniques are given a low scoring value in ITF sportive sparring, and fist/hand techniques are illegal in WTF sportive sparring.

 

 

Do you have experience fighting in an Olympic style tournament(against someone much taller than you even)? Just curious. Most WTF heavyweight fighters in the BB men's division are not slow by any means and control the ring very well making it hard to move around them.

 

No I haven't had experience fighting in Olympic style tournaments, however I am a ITF short heavyweight mens fighter... 5'9". kg. and after having tournament sparred for the past 6 years can attest to the fact that my longer limbed opponents have it over me. Taking out fist/hand techniques would make life easier for me.

 

Respectfully,

[MadCapoeirista]

My comments were directed toward ITF/WTF TKD sportive sparring specifically.

 

No one yet has given an good explanation on why fist/hand techniques are given a low scoring value in ITF sportive sparring, and fist/hand techniques are illegal in WTF sportive sparring.

 

I gave the reason for this in WTF earlier in this topic.

 

 

No I haven't had experience fighting in Olympic style tournaments, however I am a ITF short heavyweight mens fighter... 5'9". kg. and after having tournament sparred for the past 6 years can attest to the fact that my longer limbed opponents have it over me. Taking out fist/hand techniques would make life easier for me.

 

I sort of agree and sort of don't. All they would have to do is adapt and it would still be the same it's always been for you. Just because hand techniques are absent in Olympic style sparring doesn't make it easier to handle a taller opponent.

[MichiganTKD]

I was at a seminar years ago with GM Hae Man Park, and someone asked him that same question: Why don't we punch to the face in free sparring?

 

His answer: Because Tae Kwon Do is not street fighting. What I think he meant by that was that to him, face punching was used by street thugs, and we as TKD students strive to be higher than that. In our class we don't use face punching or side kicks to the face because of the damage they can do. Now you may ask: What about high roundhouse kicks or similar techniques? High roundhouse kicks contact the side of the head where it is less likely to do major damage. I've seen people get knocked out, but the skull itself is still okay. If you hit someone with a high side kick or face puch, you will destroy the frontal face plate, possibly killing them or inflicting serious damage. This is not the purpose of free fighting.

 

However, we practice those techniques in one step, within one inch of the face, with students able to exercise control.