This has always puzzled me about TKD. Explanation?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Hi all!

 

Now I know that this doesn't apply to ALL TKD dojang's, but it does for certain associations...can somebody please explain to me why certain TKD associations (such as Olympic TKD) don't allow head PUNCHES, but do allow head kicks?

 

Ask anybody that has ever been in a real fight and I'd be willing to bet head punches are by far the most common technique thrown, yet certain TKD groups don't allow them...and that makes no sense to me. I'm sure you've heard this before, but watching the TKD on the last Olympics on TV, the first thing that struck me was how unrealistic the fighting was. You have two guys standing toe to toe, able to touch their elbows on the other guys chest they are so close, and trying to kick each othger on the head when there are so many punching possabilities open to them?

 

Another question while I'm here, is that the local ITF dojang, and I've seen this in others (associations unknown), that groin kicks also aren't used, and are considered a "dishonorable" technique.

 

Granted, on the street you may not face a groin kick thrown at you often, but a good street fighter will use that, and any other trick he knows to win a fight, including biting, clawing..whatever works. Why not use it in your dojang so you gain experience defending against it? I'm not talking full force contact to the groin, but rather controlled contact. This is what we use and I have never, in over 25 years of teaching, had a serious accident with it.

 

To save time and email messages in my in-box that somebody replied to this thread, please,,,only those that can explain this to me reply. We don't need to use up bandwidth with "we don't do that in MY dojang"..OK.

[battousai16]

well, if i had to guess, it would be because allowing punches to the head would take a lot of the sport out of it. it takes under a second to nail someone in the head with a lead hand punch, and, quite frankly, it's not a very fun game if it's just the guy with the fastest lead hand. i'm sure the average school trains with head shots, at least among the upper level belts, just not in competition. head kicks are a little more challenging, and can be very pretty, and take longer to execute, which is why i'd imagine they're allowed. these rules probably circulate among the instructors, which is why they seem so universal. like you alluded to before, you'll probably get plenty of people who will say "i don't do that at my dojang". olympic style TKD, at least from what i've seen, trains to win tournaments. and i personally think that's ok, as long as they don't say otherwise.

 

groin kicks aren't allowed i'd imagine just because they're not very "honorable" (discounting what you already said), and you can't use them in tournaments, so what's the point? i think there are only two schools in my area that don't restrict groin kicks, though, so i don't think that's just a tae kwon do thing. just my guess.

[CloudDragon]

Hand techniques to the head are not used for several reasons, batttousai16 has pretty much hit the nail on the head with his reply, with one exception, kids. Parents don't want their little darlings running around with black eyes and mashed noses from TKD class. You see the schools that allow foot techniques to the head, specify "no face contact", even with this specification there is still a large window for accidental contact to the face if punches to the head are allowed, many even go to the extent of discouraging head high side kicks. (this is because of the linear motion of the side kick is more likely to contact the face than the circular motion of the round kick in the tournament setting) Now not all schools do this, and the ones that do won't come out and say it, it is usually under the guise of balance and speed issues.

 

Another reason is that TKD is known for its kicks, if tournament players can rack up points one at a time with a "sure" technique as compared to a "risky" technique, they will take the sure thing everytime. After all, people can say what they want, but the reason you pay the fee to enter a tournament is that you want to go home with a trophy, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

As far as a groin kick being dishonorable, well I have never heard of that, but as to why they are not used, see the above explanation about kids and change the body parts as needed! TKD has been "sporterized" by some teachers and is an exciting art to watch, and as long as there are people who want to learn this version of TKD, it will still be around. Unlike many martial artists, I see it as a natural progression that is influenced by what the consumer wants. Do I agree with it, sure, if presented correctly to the student. So many times I have seen schools that promote self defense training, but their sparring rules are so rigid, I can't see how they would ever survive a fight. All I can do is hope that they live a charmed life in a safe area!

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Thanks for the explanation...however...lol.

 

battousai16 said "allowing punches to the head would take a lot of the sport out of it."

 

It would? Why??? Way back when, didn't the Koreans have use of their hands?

 

"quite frankly, it's not a very fun game if it's just the guy with the fastest lead hand."

 

And the guy with the fastest lead FOOT makes it funner? I don't understand that. The idea behind competition is to win. It is essentially, mock combat..correct? And in combat, mock or real, are TKD people really thinking that they wouldn't use their hands at all?

 

"head kicks are a little more challenging, and can be very pretty, and take longer to execute,"

 

Granted..challenging, yes. Take longer to execute..yes also. Pretty? Is pretty a judging criteria now in TKD tournaments? What's next, formal wear sparring? *scratching my head here* Pretty to me is a perfectly executed and clean technique delivered on an opponent with speed, power, accuracy and control. Now that's PRETTY! One of the prettiest things I've personally doen at a tournament was up agaisnt a 4th Dan TKD practicioner that I had never seen fight before. I got in a low stance (not normal for my system) and BEGGED him to kick my head. he did, I fell to the floor and side kicked him in the groing and there was a slight "pop" sound of my foot hitting his cup. Now, THAT was pretty! And yes, at our OPEN tournaments, groin kicks are legal, as long as they are controlled and light contact. I've tried to get the local ITF TKD people to attend one of our tournaments. Know why they don't?

 

This is a direct quote from one of their senior BB's..."We don't attend open tournaments because we would DOMINATE them so much that they wouldn't invite us back again." Yeah, no kidding..the guy told me that with a straight face even! I advised him to give it a try sometime, then come back and tell ne the same thing. Thusfar, they haven't. No, I'm not TKD bashing, but these people are telling the public that theyt are the ULTIMATE martial art..it is street/combat effective, and even worse, their art is over 4,000 years old! ARGH!

 

OK, done venting...sorry.

 

CloudDragon said.."Parents don't want their little darlings running around with black eyes and mashed noses from TKD class."

 

Wait a second...you're saying that head kicks are EASIER to control than a punch to the head? Sorry CD, but I'm going to scream * on that one. Any kicks easily have twice the power and damage potential than any hand technique. I speak with 29 years (next month) of martial arts experience. Literally any hand technique is easier to control than any kicking technique. Speaking of kids, I would much rather have kids punching to heads than kicking to them, as noses and teeth are easily broken a misplace or uncontrolled technique.

 

"Another reason is that TKD is known for its kicks, if tournament players can rack up points one at a time with a "sure" technique as compared to a "risky" technique, they will take the sure thing everytime."

 

Are you saying here that a head kick is a "sure" point, whereas a punch isn't? Again, I'll disagree with that one. maybe by ITF rulls..I really don't know, but in real life..not a chance. Fast as they are, hands are even faster and more accurate, and have a vastly more extensive library of techniques to choose from.

 

Like I said people, I'm not trying to TKD bash here, just trying to figure out the logic of some things I've had questions about for some time.

[battousai16]

Shorinryu Sensei- i've more or less come to respect you and am aware of the fact that in all probability just making TKD practicioners think to see the flaws in their system, and fill in the gaps themselves. i'm sure you're not trying to start a flame war, don't worry about it

 

i don't think i said take the sport out of it, i believe i said take the fun out of it, though i'm to lazy to look back and make sure . i don't personally view TKD point sparring as "mock combat", but more as an aggressive game of tag. don't get me wrong, i'm not necissarily bashing it, it has it's place, but it's far more game than combat preparition.

 

as to your next point, i'll use bond girls. i think izabella scorupco (natalya, goldeneye) is very pretty. i think barbara bach (XXX, the spy who loved me) is also very pretty. as well as maryam d'abo (the living daylights). but none of them look anything alike. i think F-16s are pretty. i think F-14s are pretty. i think F-117s are pretty. i think perfectly executed side kicks are pretty. i think contemporary wushu is pretty. do you see what i'm getting at? a well timed scenario like you explained with the groin kick is something i'd like to see. i'd also like to see someone jump in the air, spin around and do some crazy capoeira thing and nail him in the head. maybe it's just all of the "extreme" marketing thrown at my generation, but both of those are pretty cool. apples and oranges, cats and dogs, sunshine and rain, man and woman.

[battousai16]

also, i don't think anyone would argue that it's more logical to punch someone in the face than to do a jump reverse round kick to the head. but the latter is more challenging to time and execute, and is thus worth more points. it's a game.

[CloudDragon]

Please let me explain as sometimes my brain moves faster than my fingers!

 

Wait a second...you're saying that head kicks are EASIER to control than a punch to the head?

 

No, but because of the techniques used by most sport TKD'ers to the head, (variants of round kicks) a kick is less likely to hit the face as it is circular and coming in from the side, as opposed to the jab which is coming straight in and unless the opponent is looking 90 degrees away from the attack,the fist will be near the face, see what I mean?

 

Are you saying here that a head kick is a "sure" point, whereas a punch isn't?

 

Again, No. I meant to say that if a player can get one point with a punch and virtually no fear of being scored on, as opposed to a head kick for two points which could create a bigger opening for a longer time for a counter, then the player would go with the punch.

 

Hope this clears up those issues.

[ninjanurse]

Well, I think this thread started off on the right foot, however, the temperature seems to be rising ( hint,hint). Lets not nit pick over symantics please!

 

Battousai had some excellent points that seem to answer the question quite well and I agree. Olympic style TKD is a SPORT! A game of chess so to speak. Hands are quick and easy-quite devastating if that is the intent. TKD practitioners understand the practicality of techniques they use and vice-cersa and high kicks are difficult to score with so the challenge is greater. I would hope they (we) have enough sense not to try them in an open tourney(well, maybe just one if the opportunity presents itself!!!)or a "street fight". When both players are playing by the same rules it makes it a game. When they are playing by different rules then who cares what technique is thrown as long as it hits the target and does it's job. Lastly, all TKD schools/associations have different ideas on sparring but they all play by the same rules at an Olympic style tournament. If they want to play by different rules they go to an open tournament. I am a TKD practitioner and I prefer open tourny's for just that reason.

 

[tommarker]

It's like foil fencing. It's evolved into something sanitary that lots of people can enjoy. It's just happened to evolve in a very specific manner.

 

Some rules in foil fencing have created some "interesting" tactics (such as the behind the head strike whose name escapes me) that would be completely irrelevant in a practical situation.

 

If you don't like the rules of foil fencing, you pick up a sabre

 

You don't like the rules of TKD, change your specialty

[MadCapoeirista]

One of the reasons in Olympic competition that head punches aren't allowed is because at the time when TKD was making it's Olympic bid, Karate was also doing the same. An argument the karate people used is that TKD is just Korean karate and so they took away punches to the head in competition. Olympic style with head punches would just be open point, they wanted differentiation. I for one think that this makes Olympic style competition a lot more technical and it has allowed for a lot of developments that may not have come about as easily. IMHO(and experience), it's easy to punch someone in the head. I don't have anything against open point(stop and continuos) competiton but a lot of them look really sloppy to me.. :/

 

A good Olympic style TKD dojang would still teach the normal curriculm, including all hand techniques, one steps, etc. Maybe even a little grappling as ours does. Just because something isn't done in competition doesn't mean a person can't do it when they need to.

 

I think someone mentioned kids and head kicks? Black belt kids 14 and above can kick the head and 14 and under black and colored belts cannot.