taezee Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 versus AGAIN?? taekwondo /shotokan ? we come back around to two words i always use to these types of questions..INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVMENT...thus it is the man who makes his art and not vica versa...as for taekwondo always being thought of for its kicks ..sure thats our department..this is were we excell but only the tip of the iceberg..shotokan a very strong form of karate ..both excellent arts..both having excellent practioners..then again even boxing has excellent warriors..but because it does not have kicks dosent mean it is not a formidable martial art..when it comes to hands it is one of the best...INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVMENT..what works for you Javier l Rosario instructor taekwondo/hapkidounder master Atef s Himaya"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your *" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Nah, i'm gonna 'about face' on the whole "it's the artist not the art" thing. I reckon that's a load of crap! There are superior techniques and then there are inferior techniques. Otherwise we would all still be hitting each other with clubs. I've met many a talented martial artist in my time, and i always try and pick what art they SHOULD have been in and not the art that they WERE in. I'm a freestyler, and i reckon if i had been stuck to TKD or Karate that i simply would not be as talented as i am. I'm going to say it bluntly, and this is a pure EXPERIENCED BASED belief. I consider that Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are the two superior martial arts in the world. It's far too easy to end an armguement by saying both arts are as good as each other. I used to be an advocate for this kind of thinking, but not anymore. When i introduced Thai Boxing into my regime it simply rocked my world - i can't say any more. I know people in this day and age don't like to think that one thing is superior to another, but it's true. A cannon is better than a spitball, a sharp knife is better than a blunt one. I consider that the martial arts that don't explore outside of their own little closed worlds are the blunt knives - worn out over time and being superceded by the sharp knives, which are the arts that continuously develop. I must admit that even Muay Thai has its faults. Freestylers are quickly becoming some of the best fighters in the world, and people like Rickson Gracie are simply rare 'freaks' who stick to one art and remain unbeaten (RG is arguably the toughest dude in the world, and has had over 400 fights, all undefeated - the only MA he's ever done is Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). I don't know wassup with me lately, but i seem to love having a good rant. I just suppose i don't like the whole modesty thing. Stay cool peepholes, Angus _________________ "Your Anger is a Gift" - Rage Against the Machine Angus Argyle - KarateForums.com Sensei Freestyle Martial Artist. [ This Message was edited by: Angus on 2001-11-08 22:50 ] Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taezee Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 okay angus if were talking about lifiting the "modesty barrier" okay then...i know that i can kick the heads off most people that step in and square off with me..no matter what style they practice but then that is my personal level of training wheter your a jiujitsu stylist... muay tai... kung fu or whatever..thats me..that does not however mean that my style of fighting is the best..but becuase I can do that does not mean i can ignore the advantages of other styles..or the right to put down other styles...i have been primarily a taekwondo stylist..but in my repritore over the years ive adapted to my personal style of fighting ..Hapkido...boxing and even jiujitsu to become a more rounded martial artist..bottom line is if i kick you the end result is definete....something is broken..thats what i specialize in..i dont "tag" i hit full force..i am famous for breaking heavy bags with the force i kick with...also for breaking objects.. both power and speed...that comes from years of vigorus practice..i dont half step ..i go all the way..in every aspect,,becuase i have this abilty does not mean korean martial arts are superior..just that with constant practice and disipline you will have the same kicking capabilty as me...and that is a result of my personal achievment..there are many taekwondoist that cannot kick with the same intensity or power that i can...at the same time there are plenty of boxers out there that can throw a upper cut or left jab much harder than i can..that is there forte..and if they catch me im going down...it all depends on squaring off who does what first,,you see what im saying?? so that is what i mean..you can throw senerios al day long and argue all day long whos better or whats better all day long but in the end its the individual that makes the difference..and i end with this..before bruce lee started the study of wing chun..it was considered a female martial art it was made fun of since it was created by a female martial artist...it wasnt manly or considered effective..well once he learned this art we all know what happened afterwards...it was his personal achievment that changed everything for wing chun afterwards....point made im done .and finally if we are talking about blunt and sharp knives...taekwondo kicking techniques are always cutting edge..thank you..modesty gone..and still humbly..javier _________________ Javier l Rosario bayshore new york instructor taekwondo/hapkido "whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your ass" [ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2001-11-09 01:07 ] [ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2001-11-09 01:32 ] [ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2001-11-09 01:32 ] Javier l Rosario instructor taekwondo/hapkidounder master Atef s Himaya"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your *" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggy9 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Agnus, I too believe that you have effective and ineffective techniques (in modern circumstances) within each art, but in a fight who choses which techniques are being used? You do...and therefore it doesnt matter what art youre practicing itz you who determines the outcome. I think a truly good martial artist should be take on tkd artists, karate artists, muay thai artists, kung fu artists, ju jitsu artists, boxers, wrestlers....artists from any art and be equally as effective. Even if you practice TKD or Karate you'll find gaps in youre fight style...you'll find that their are some moves from opponents you dont know what to do with, you'll find that some of youre most succesfull and effective moves will be easily neutralised by some opponents. A classic example would be Ninjitsu and Karate. Samurai warriors would keep the law in Japan in the time of the emperors, the Ninjitsu developed alot of their art to deal with Karate that the Samurai's used easily and effectively. So i think if you are rigid enough to stick to training in one style and one style only, you'll never reach youre potential as a fighter and you'll never be all that sucessful. But taking a head to head of TKD to Karate anyways : Both are Yang vs Yang : so no difference there. Karate was an integral part of TKD's early development, and you can see the similiarities between the arts - but if you think thier was an improvement made is totally up to you. I think maybe at the time TKD was made, it may have been better for the fight environment, but today/now in modern fight circumstances i think they are just as effective/ineffective as each other. In the time i studied TKD i found their was less stress on punches, sweeps e.t.c then In Karate (but i can't say that it is def like that) Now if you think that it makes alot of difference, that depends on you and youre personaly 'forte's' like Taezee said. So all in all, i dont think i can actually say which one is better...maybe it is a draw after all but - at the end of the day that doesnt really matter. Whats more important is what you do with the skills you learned, youre techniques are simply tools - what you sculpt is a different story. But you said you dont know all dat much bout Karate and what it's about... I recommend you read up on it, a book i really really suggest is : Karate - Do My way of life : Gichin Funakoshi But in essence he says that Karate is about training for life, all aspects, from physical fitness, self defence to discipline and training a healthy state of mind and lifestyle. But Karate is more then just about fighting, it's about life ; I guess that's something karate is known for. Shotokan Karate Black Belt ==Defend the path of Truth== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamrushman Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 as with tradition...............the debate continues..... rushman (karate forums sensei)3rd dan wtf/kukkiwon"saying nothing...sometimes says the most"--e. dickerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Javier, dude, u kinda proved my point in an attempt to refute it. Talking about the forte's and stuff, TKD is (at least i consider it to be) the best kicking art in the world. Of course some martial artists are gonna have more drive than others, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be better if they did a different art. Your ability to break objects with your kicks, that's technique as well as your skill... hmm... i'm having trouble putting this into words. You say you've taken part in other arts... that further helps my point. In that sense u are, kinda sorta maybe, partially a freestyler - in that u have adapted and seen the faults in your technique and rectified it by trying to even it out with boxing or jiujitsu... why did u do boxing? Because boxing's hand techniques are superior to others. Why did u do jiujitsu? Because it helps u with you grappling. Jiujitsu teaches better grappling than tkd.... Damn, i can't seem to put the right words down, i think i'll leave it there. Angus _________________ "Your Anger is a Gift" - Rage Against the Machine Angus Argyle - KarateForums.com Sensei Freestyle Martial Artist. [ This Message was edited by: Angus on 2001-11-09 16:23 ] Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taezee Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 whats up angus go reread my last post then come back....................................................you see i am agreeing with you on one point which is no martial art is complete...crosstraining is essential..while you( and correct me if im wrong )where disagreeing with the statement i made and continue to make..that when all is said and done..when all the politics of comparing what style is better then what..it really comes down to the individual...the martial artist and what he can do with his art......what you were trying to put into words was that while i study taekwondo i use other forms of fighting so i do advocate crosstraing of course..but that wasnt the original topic (TKD vs karate )and my answer always has and always will be that the martial artist makes his art work for him and that no one style stands out above the rest..they all have srentghs and weaknesses.... crosstraining helps to balance that out to get into such debates about style superiority is an excercise in futility...... _________________ Javier l Rosario bayshore new york instructor taekwondo/hapkido "whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your ass" [ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2001-11-09 19:56 ] [ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2001-11-09 19:57 ] Javier l Rosario instructor taekwondo/hapkidounder master Atef s Himaya"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your *" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Yeah yeah yeah, that's it! I've got some sort of ice age going on in my head at the moment and i can't seem to express what i am saying. But yeah, i might try and clarify this. There are superior techniques which go together to form a superior art, which is essentially the method of crosstraining.... *shoves a match in his ear to warm up his brain*.... Therefore u can kinda argue that there is a style above others but.... aghas hdf gashhsd k..... i.... can't.... think..... straight.... need.... beer... Angus Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taezee Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 HOW TO SPEAK AUSTRALIAN *angus lighting a match to his brain* *big explosion follows*..TRAIN OF THOUGHT....fosters beer!!!! ................ well ill agree with you on this angus a martial artist that adapts more technique into his arsenal is definetly a superior fighter Javier l Rosario instructor taekwondo/hapkidounder master Atef s Himaya"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your *" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karateka Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I am a firm believer in that a person makes the art, the art doesn't make the person. Some arts may not pleasure your pallette. That is why we were given brains. All Martial Arts teach us that as we go higher, we can discard what we don't need and utilize what we do. "Never hit a man while he's down; kick him, its easier"Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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