Drunken Monkey Posted February 1, 2004 Posted February 1, 2004 and i think you have some kind of ego thing going on... i responded to the wing chun comment. not you. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
jeffrogers Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 I just went back and re-read it. I feel like tool. I appologize! -Jeff
Drunken Monkey Posted February 2, 2004 Posted February 2, 2004 don't worry about it. i have a bit of a short temper and i sometimes snap at people. and well, different people post in different styles. i'm one of them guys who like to post in 'conversation', others like to post one off statements. this mish mash of posting styles does make it hard to get sense of what is being said and what is replying to what. post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite."
I-Self Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 Yeah all valid rebuttals. I have experience in GJJ (under Caique and Ryron Gracie whom I still train with at times), Judo and Boxing. Judo and boxing were my first MAs. I have always had a good grasp of jacket wrestling and the use of the fisticuffs. The same for my sensei. He was a Golden Glove in Austin before playing starting fullback for Texas A&M. I guess I could include football too . His experience and my life experience leads me to believe that a lot of folks parrot what they see and hear. In fact that is a very sad fact. They don't base it on their own empiricism, they live vicariously through the lives and livelihoods of others. My sensei was an MP (K9 officer) in Okinawa and Vietnam in the 60s. He did Shotokan, Uechi ryu and Okinawan Kenpo, before totally switching to one area of MAs emphasis- Shorin Ryu. Why didn't he become a boxing coach or even continue boxing? Why does he believe so strongly in what he has done for 4 decades now? Because at 6'3" and 250 pounds, a pro level athlete with great dexterity, speed and strength, his excellent boxing and grappling skills meant naught against a real fighter like Fusei Kise who was 5'5" and about 170 pounds in the 60s. Those geeks that claimed to be legit strikers and karate-ka in the first UFCs, (Fred Ettish for example) had never fought or taken real bone-on-bone contact to any real degree before. Royce is awesome. No doubt, all the Gracies and all their BBs are. They fight for a living. It is their life. They dedicate 100% of their time to GJJ. It is their duty to do so. It's called tradition. You know, that word people hate to use in MAs nowadays. Contrary to popular belief those crash pads they used don't allow for maneuverability. That was a grapplers paradise. BTW I did see that UFC where Frank KO'd the cat with a body slam ("spearing the ball" is the tech in karate). I've seen that done about 20 times on concrete. You should see what it does then. I saw a Judo guy get double-legged by a non-grappler who was quite a bit smaller than him, but did the right technique for the situation. Judo or GJJ guarantees nothing when Mr. Surprise and Adrenalin Dump rear their ugly heads. My point is, most of those guys in the first 3 UFCs were scrubs. Ken Shamrock and Royce excluded. Gordeau was OK, but c'mon. Did you see what kind of shape he was in? Anyway, Rorion funded UFC to showcase his family's art. He wasn't gonna ask the best to come against Royce and his family's style. This leaves us with people who have never really fought on that level before. That's the truth. The element of surprise is always a good equalizer. About palm strikes. Please. That's for girls. There is a time for that, but fragile hand bones hitting rock hard skull is not good technique, no matter what the striking adages say. Trust me, I'm an Orthopedic Hand Surgery Resident. Open hand strikes are for soft areas like the ears, neck, eyes and not much more. Palm strikes are good for chin striking/pushing when in close. Everything else is closed fist. Not padded fist either. No pads and wraps on the street. BTW bag work is not chi gung. Kata is. Bagwork pales to hitting really hard things that don't move like wall mounted makiwara. I do bagwork and never use wraps, tape or gloves either. What for? So I can throw that looping a$$ed hook to Trinidad's hard head? Nope. It's for Billy Bad * without gloves. Boxers always ask me how long I've been boxing and won't that hurt your hands? I smile. Getting into the street mode is not as easy as you think. Maybe one day you'll experience this, but hopefully not. Everyone has their purposes for training. I was a PJ in the AF who laughed when h2h was taught. Obviously whoever made up the curriculum had never fought, one-on-one or otherwise, in the streets. Training for keeps is completely different. Intent is everything. That ring crap is for gamers and wanna-be players addicted to epinephrine (adrenalin). I did it as a kid and progressed to grown folks fighting when I got older and smarter. GJJ's self defense is really what you focus on if you do privates at Gracie Torrance. That was how Helio really wanted to teach his art. Based on his SD techs. You don't have to tell me about GJJ schools who focus on the SD. They train people like me in that way because they know me and understand my needs and skills. Plus, who better to roll with than an authentic gracie . I don't think rolling with the entire class is necessary if you are a person "acclimated" to real combat. I am a karate-ka through and through, but I always like to see others perspectives. I totally repect fighting from the guard and the skill at which they do it. It is situational specific though and rarely indicated on the streets of America. I still kickbox every so often too, because like GJJ, it can be fun and rewarding and nostalgic. That's all I use to do in the Philippines. I train in Okinawan Karate, under a knowledgable and prodigious traditional sensei. Guys like that, who know real fighting, are waiting for the shoot, as am I and my bro and others who train and know the truth. My sensei's able to counter almost all takedown attempts or throws. Judo or Suai Jiao are the last things you want to use on guys like him. I can only tell you what I know being someone who has been fighting in some form or another for 25+ years now. This is solely based on what I've seen and done myself. Even if you are the best judo-ka a forum guy could be I doubt I would be an easy mark. What I know works and is based on my life growing up in a place where everyone was a MA type of some sort, and they liked to prove their worth. From Boxing to Wrestling, TKD to Muay Thai. What I did numerous times for real in my life worked, and I bet it still does. Don't lump everything into a general category. It's like stereotyping a race or something know-what-I-mean Sev'? There are plenty of traditional karate-ka who could hold their own against any level of opponent (especially with the element of surprise on their side). I'm sure someone someday will go about proving this, but right now there is no need. It's better to know what your enemy does and for them to be left assuming or not knowing. Ask the Gracies who are being compensated monetarily, but at the same time some of their arts efficacy was lost in the process. There are athletic types who make traditional karate work for them like the work horse athletes of MMAs and BJJ (traditional grappling IMHO) make those styles work for them. Ya'll just don't know any. So allow me to introduce myself... I need no validation and you can believe me or diss me. Whatever. I know the truth. PS: Who's this cat (JR) claiming White Crane Karate then dissing what it stands for? Are you none-too-swift or just stupid? Must be a Jar-rine. Like Malcolm X said "No Sell Outs!!!" Next! Yes, there is a right and wrong way....There is no "Do" without "Jutsu"!
jeffrogers Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 That would be me. White Crane has excellent concepts. Do I feel it will make you be able to fight fast No! Do I feel it is worth learning absolutely, because the concepts can tie in nicely but to be able to perform them takes alot of practice to get one concept down and to build off of them. So long Run white crane is were I want to go I train both MMA type and White crane. How do you say I am dissing. I seen very few actually highly good Karate ka. So compared to MMA to Karate ka if you want to go that rought more MMA are prepared for fighting. Using suprise goes both ways so that is really invalid point. You can be the best at what ever you do. But if you get caugh of guard you can be easily dead. We aren't invincible. I know who Kise is he is okay. One of my instructors trained in him. You heard of Anthony Sandoval, he is a very outstanding martial artist. I know you want to sound your horn right now maybe you seemed irriated about all this. but realiy is you compare most average MMA artist to Karate ka MMA has far more advantage there are those few karate ka because of how they train that are the exception. So again tell me how I am dissing what it stands for? -Jeff
aznkarateboi Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 Your instructor is most likely able to resist takedowns for one reason: he took BJJ in the past and practiced against other BJJ practitioners. I don't think it has much to do with the art he practices now. Also I have yet to see one takedown defense from any traditional martial artist that actually works. If a grappler wants to take you down and you aren't a grappler, there isn't much you can do.
TJS Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 I just want to make one comment on one thing said...My point is, most of those guys in the first 3 UFCs were scrubs. This is rediculous and i get sick or hearing it. Ken Shamrock-Obviously a talented submission fighter Remco Pardoel- 8 or 9 time European jiu jitsu champion and 3-4 time judo champion. alos holds a black belt in tae kwon do...yep he is a real scrub. Pat Smith -won the Sabaki Challenge in 1989 and Knocked out the legendary andy Hug in K-1..Another scrub I guess. Gerard was a very succesful Kyokushin Fighter who cross trained in Savate and MT. Minoki Ichihara was a full contact karate champion of Japan, I would think that means something, if not we can classify him as another scrub. Orlando weit was a decorated Muay Thai champion Keith hackney showed some solid standup skills. Dan severn Has won more wrestling Titles than i could list on this page. Guy mezger Was world Kickboxing champion with solid grappling skills. So the truth is ust because not all of these guys did well int here dosent mean they werent great int heir own right.
SevenStar Posted February 4, 2004 Posted February 4, 2004 His experience and my life experience leads me to believe that a lot of folks parrot what they see and hear. In fact that is a very sad fact. They don't base it on their own empiricism, they live vicariously through the lives and livelihoods of others. I agree with that. It's one of the sad truths about many MA today. Why does he believe so strongly in what he has done for 4 decades now? Because at 6'3" and 250 pounds, a pro level athlete with great dexterity, speed and strength, his excellent boxing and grappling skills meant naught against a real fighter like Fusei Kise who was 5'5" and about 170 pounds in the 60s. yeah, that happens. It's just a mark of good traning - not style specific. One of the best fighters I know is a guy I was training in karate under - he was 5'5 and about 160, born raised and trained in Japan. The problem comes in when you try to find such people in TMA - In this day and age, the McSchool seems to be becoming dominant. My point is, most of those guys in the first 3 UFCs were scrubs. Ever notice how that is said about every TmA to enter the ring, not just the early ones? Jason DeLucia claims a kung fu style, and even though his record is 33-19, CMA will tell you that his kung fu is crap. About palm strikes. Please. That's for girls. There is a time for that, but fragile hand bones hitting rock hard skull is not good technique, no matter what the striking adages say. I'm a fist person myself, but I see the advantage the palm can give. targets like the forehead (big areas of the skull) aren't prime targets anyway, unless you are in the ring and want to knock someone's chin up. Boxers always ask me how long I've been boxing and won't that hurt your hands? I smile. I never use wraps or gloves on a bag. Getting into the street mode is not as easy as you think. Been there. Training for keeps is completely different. Intent is everything. That ring crap is for gamers and wanna-be players addicted to epinephrine (adrenalin). I did it as a kid and progressed to grown folks fighting when I got older and smarter. the "kid stuff" teaches several things, such as how to take a blow when you are hit, how to deal with the adrenaile rush and several other things. There are many advantages to training full contact and competing continuosly against people you don't know. Plus, who better to roll with than an authentic gracie . I've rolled with royce several times - he's awesome. I've rolled with adriano lucio too, and I think he may be a bit better than Royce. I don't think rolling with the entire class is necessary if you are a person "acclimated" to real combat. I am a karate-ka through and through, but I always like to see others perspectives. I totally repect fighting from the guard and the skill at which they do it. It is situational specific though and rarely indicated on the streets of America. Don't limit it to the guard... the clinch is something you see alot. grappling comes in great there. I train in Okinawan Karate, under a knowledgable and prodigious traditional sensei. Guys like that, who know real fighting, are waiting for the shoot, as am I and my bro and others who train and know the truth. My sensei's able to counter almost all takedown attempts or throws. Judo or Suai Jiao are the last things you want to use on guys like him. I can only tell you what I know being someone who has been fighting in some form or another for 25+ years now. This is solely based on what I've seen and done myself. he's had grappling training, correct? Don't lump everything into a general category. It's like stereotyping a race or something know-what-I-mean Sev'? There are plenty of traditional karate-ka who could hold their own against any level of opponent (especially with the element of surprise on their side). I don't. However, as said before, how often do you find REALLY good stuff? EVEN most current TMA will tell you that much of the stuff available now is crap. I know there are good schools around, you just have to find them. I'm sure someone someday will go about proving this, but right now there is no need. It's better to know what your enemy does and for them to be left assuming or not knowing. Ask the Gracies who are being compensated monetarily, but at the same time some of their arts efficacy was lost in the process. I've asked. If you ask Royce, this is what he will tell you: "I'm not a MMA fighter, I'm a bjj stylist" the quality of his bjj hasn't dwindled - MMA is, well, MMA - the strikers evolved and added grappling. The grapplers evolved and added striking. The purists stayed the same. Royce is a purist. He can still kick butt in grappling circles, but as he admits, he's not a MMA. There are athletic types who make traditional karate work for them like the work horse athletes of MMAs and BJJ (traditional grappling IMHO) make those styles work for them. agreed. BJJ isn't really traditional though. Kosen Judo is traditional. BJJ is a modern offshoot of judo. Ya'll just don't know any. So allow me to introduce myself... I know several. That was a good intro though. Next! Looks like it's your turn. I can talk about MA all day...
Recommended Posts