TMA vs. Grapplers

[SevenStar]

Fighting to save your butt is never the same as a "prepared" battle. You get months to train for the specific competiton you'll be in. You get time to become use to the fact that you're gonna meet your adversary. On the street there is a good chance you won't have a clue when this will occur or who's gonna do it.

 

don't you train every day? you have every day to prepare yourself. For years, considering that most MA will not be in the situation to use their skills anyway, once they are into adulthood. you have plenty of time to prepare for the fact that you may eventually be accosted. The question is how fast can you switch into your combat frame of mind.

 

That aside, professional athletes and martial sportsmen are usually better equipped to handle some form of adrenaline rush, full contact and all the ranges imaginable (if they do MMAs especially). Most dojos and such don't train for reality or sport. That's the truth. It's also true that many pro strikers like those who do K1 exclusively aren't trained to handle a proficient grappler. Take Cro Cop vs. Minotauro for example.

 

agreed.

 

MMAs types won't use their skills to attack unsuspecting people or to start fights at your local club or bar. Well, usually not. The type of idiots who want to fight usually have brawler skills, no skills at all just no conscience or some type of wrestling background. For this reason it is good to train in a style that addresses how to deal with a street mugger and/or hugger.

 

some bjj schools will do that. self defense training is part of the beginner's bjj class where I train.

 

BTW Keith Hackney is a middle of the road striker. Meaning he is decent but there are much better "traditional" strikers out there who would never use open hand strikes/punches to hit hard targets like the head. That is called desperation and faulty technique. He should know this if he is so awesome. American Kenpo is Okinawan Karate- light. It belongs in the same category as Wing Chun. He really ain't shite, trust me.

 

I don't mean the awesome as in the best. He's by far the best TMA to be in the UFC/Pride scene though, next to maybe delucia. As far as the palm goes - that's the way it's taught. the fist is for hard soft targets like the stomach - you punch the skull and you stand the chance of breaking your hand. no, you should not punch the skull, but those things happen. he cound intend to strike the jaw and catch the guy's dome as he ducks...Bas Rutten was known for his use of palm strikes.

 

You can definitely be a capable striker and grappler without training full time in either. This only after you understand the rudiments of both though, with a good foundation in either.

 

agreed. that was never in debate.

 

There are a few styles that teach both and always have, even some quick and effective street reliable ground techs.

 

far too few for it to matter. bjj and judo both have street effective gorund techs though.

 

You probably won't find a good instructor near you though.

 

when I go to chicago, I train shuai chiao with a group of guys. The instructor was trained under Dr. Brian Wu, who was a direct student of chang tung sheng...I'm also friends with a bagua sifu who trained under park bok nam. I don't train bagua though.

 

Chi Gung, Iron Body- all that has purposes for the serious practitioner of an art.

 

so does kicking a bag several hundred times per day. sport styles have conditioning of their own.

 

If you want to do a sport system like wrestling or boxing then good. To be mediocre in a limited martial sport is not my aim, but it is mosts nowadays.

 

and to be merely mediocre in either a TMA or MMA is not in my list of things to accomplish, either.

 

The street is not padded. So whether Pride or UFC, an advantage is there for the grappler.

 

that's not an advantage for either. If you want to look at it that way, look at all of the strikers whose butts were saved because they weren't getting taken down or thrown onto concrete...

 

Let me body slam or head throw a cat on the concrete and we'll see how they "break fall".

 

I have done breakfalls on concrete. they work. Do they hurt? hell yeah. but they work, nontheless. on a similar note, remember when frank shamrock slammed an opponent into the mat, knocking him out? the mat didn't save him...

 

In the Shaolin/Chinese inspired systems (this includes Okinawan, Filipino and Indonesian systems) throws have evil intent. In the Judo or JJ inspired ones training is on mats (tatami or otherwise) and therefore, "nice" throws are ingrained.

 

it's no different. in shuai chiao, take the example of bowing. it's a shoulder throw. but the "black hands" version has you turning the opponent's arm over so that the elbow is on your shoulder. when you throw him, it breaks. the safe version is not done that way. when you practice, you do the safe version, just as in judo. If you have a teaher that will show you how to modify the throws, then you will learn them.

 

the problem with shaolin and other systems, as I said earlier is that the curriculum is so broad. in shuai chiao, the focus is throws. consequently, you get good at throwing...fast. that is not the case with styles like shaolin, where the focus is not throwing, but merely a small aspect of a bigger style.

 

7* you can't ask someone to be objective about the thing they helped to create and the rules involved.

 

who's asking that? I only asked royce about eye gouges.

 

It also helps in your forms training. Adds lots of lost bunkai.

 

Most MAs is crap. Sorry.

 

Agreed.

[jeffrogers]

Actually sevenstar Chuck Liddel was resported to do Kenpo and he has a far better record in MMA. So technicaly he can be considered the best TMA.

 

 

-Jeff

[Sim]

Thanks for the info about the UFC and PRIDE, a lot of this I simply didn’t know. I will have to find the original UFCs and watch them more closely and look for the things you mention. I will also have to look for more info on Delucia, its just that the little bit I saw of him gave me some doubts. To be honest, not long after I wrote those posts I was learning some BJJ from one of my friends at my School’s Chinese New Year party. Most of the things that I brought up in this thread were proven wrong to me. I plan on learning more jiu jitsu from him when we hang out again.

 

I want to make it clear that I am not biased to one method of fighting or another. I know the fact that my styles listed to the left are traditional kung fu styles and that will probably give most MMA the immediate impression that I am very biased to traditional arts. I love to learn any techniques that I can, in fact that’s why I chose the school that I did. My Sifu is a master of 3 kung fu styles, his cousin is a black belt in Judo, the top student is a San Shou fighter etc….

 

I am not an avid fan of the UFC so you will have to forgive my ignorance on the subject. I haven’t watched the UFC in a long time either. I will be looking into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu more now since I had so much fun learning it yesterday.

[jeffrogers]

Here is one reason why MMA guys make fun of TMA guys. Well here is several reasons.

 

1. Silly claims of Dimak with out any supporting evidence.

 

2. Your ability to talk about your awesome skills and how you would easily waste so opponent. But you are so spirtual or reached your Zen states that you can not fight as its against your code of honor. (So basically your inability to back your claims or what we call. Put up or shut up. This you can't do. so you get made fun of)

 

3. You don't see MMA guys Running around Albertson or local grocery store doing shoots on each other taking the person down and armbarring them. Or you don't see any Grapplers doing flying arm bars and saying how they can beat every one on earth.

 

How ever you will see a couple pathetic guys in there early 20's. Some times also mid and late 20's in there Kung fu or Karate outfits, doing there silly techniques on each other. Saying how they will be so and so with x technique. Then saying they are awesome fighters and start talking about the cool "point fighting tournment they won" (Ohhh scary!)

 

I mean there is a time a place for things. But in your uniform resprenting your respective arts and talking *. and doing silly moves on each other in Public estatablishment is defienlty not one of them.

 

That is all.

 

-Jeff

[TJS]

Peace everyone...peace

[Sim]

What’s with all the use of “you” and “your” is this all directed towards me? Just to make things clear I do not act or think like that. I admit I am a little ignorant about the UFC being I’m not that much of a fan. I like tournaments such as K1 much more. Thanks to those who corrected me as far as the rules of the UFC are concerned . I just remember being told by someone (who must have been badly misinformed) a long time ago about the rules involved in those tournaments.

 

 

1. Silly claims of Dimak with out any supporting evidence.

 

Sigh… Yes that happens a lot with beginners because they watch too many kung fu movies or read stupid books by stupid authors. I admit I was like that when I first started.

 

As far as Dim Mak itself, it is nothing more than pressure point techniques. Most people think of it as literally being a “death touch” which is absurd. The techniques do work for causing large amounts of pain, numbness and in some cases unconsciousness because it’s simply putting pressure on nerves and arteries. You will actually find that doctors know where those same pressure points are, they just don’t say they are acupuncture meridians. Most of these techniques will not work in a real fight since adrenaline will be pumping and what ever pain they will cause might not even be felt.

2. Your ability to talk about your awesome skills and how you would easily waste so opponent. But you are so spirtual or reached your Zen states that you can not fight as its against your code of honor. (So basically your inability to back your claims or what we call. Put up or shut up. This you can't do. so you get made fun of)

 

Sadly that is not just beginners. I have run across Tae Kwon Do and Karate teachers that don’t believe in full contact training, saying things like, “My techniques used in full contact would destroy the human body, that’s why I don’t train full contact”. Anyone who is familiar with full contact training will fall over and laugh after hearing that. In order to become a black sash at our school you have to take the San Shou classes. This is because my Sifu believes that you should have at least some full contact training before you start teaching lower ranking students.

3. You don't see MMA guys Running around Albertson or local grocery store doing shoots on each other taking the person down and armbarring them. Or you don't see any Grapplers doing flying arm bars and saying how they can beat every one on earth.

 

How ever you will see a couple pathetic guys in there early 20's. Some times also mid and late 20's in there Kung fu or Karate outfits, doing there silly techniques on each other. Saying how they will be so and so with x technique. Then saying they are awesome fighters and start talking about the cool "point fighting tournment they won" (Ohhh scary!)

 

Though nobody from our school does that, I do think it is a little silly when I see karateka’s walking around stores in their gis. I mean don’t they have a changing room at their dojo? I usually want to get out of my uniform after class because it gets soaked in sweat. I admit I would practice my techniques at work, but usually when nobody is around because I don’t want it to be construed as showing off.

[aznkarateboi]

BTW Keith Hackney is a middle of the road striker. Meaning he is decent but there are much better "traditional" strikers out there who would never use open hand strikes/punches to hit hard targets like the head. That is called desperation and faulty technique. He should know this if he is so awesome. American Kenpo is Okinawan Karate- light. It belongs in the same category as Wing Chun. He really ain't shite, trust me.

Um.... American kenpo and wing chun are completely separate systems from okinawan karate. And American Kenpo and Wing Chun are both known for using "dirty" fighting, just as much if not more than okinawan karate... Also, by saying that good traditional strikers would not use open hand strikes/punches to hit the head, you are basically saying that the head is not a good target for hands strikes (since hand strikes basically consist of open hand and fist techniques). I'm not going to bother arguing against that statement, I will let common sense do the arguing for me.

The street is not padded. So whether Pride or UFC, an advantage is there for the grappler. Let me body slam or head throw a cat on the concrete and we'll see how they "break fall". In the Shaolin/Chinese inspired systems (this includes Okinawan, Filipino and Indonesian systems) throws have evil intent. In the Judo or JJ inspired ones training is on mats (tatami or otherwise) and therefore, "nice" throws are ingrained.

 

Um, as a traditional martial artist you will obviously not be spending half the time on throws and takedowns as... say... a judo practitioner or a BJJ fighter. Thus, YOU will most likely be the one hitting the concrete. Can you give one example of a match in which a grappler faces a TMA, and the grappler is the one who is taken down? I didn't think so. Therefore, the pads give a clear advantage to the one who is taken down (the traditional martial artist). And what do you mean by evil intent? The deadly technique argument? If your techniques are so deadly, how can you practice them to a sufficient level of skill against a resisting opponent without harming them? And how much easier is throwing a fellow karateka then throwing a grappler who is used to defending against such attacks?

 

Concerning the "deadly technique" argument... The grappler would probably win more if these techniques were allowed. The grappler would proceed to take down the striker and then proceed to utilize his superior position to poke out his eyes, attack his groin, break his fingers, or simply apply a submission hold like usual.

 

That being said, I am an advocate of traditional martial arts. I simply think that MMA, grappling in particular, is simply superior to TMA for one on one combat. I believe that TMA is superior for eliminating untrained or multiple opponents more efficiently.

[jeffrogers]

actually begginers running around stores I seen grown men or least guys in there 20's doint that practing with each other during albertsons. That was sad!

 

 

 

As well as seeing some intermediate and advance belts running there mouths. Alot of people say this and that. Look at some of George Dillman's students. I heard one guy mention he was barred from the UFC because of his pressupre point work. *. Oh well!

 

-Jeff

[Drunken Monkey]

OI!

 

wing chun does not fight 'dirty'....

 

[jeffrogers]

edited Edited February 2, 2004 by jeffrogers