TMA vs. Grapplers

[Sim]

I have most of the best UFC fights on tape, including the fights from UFC 1, 2 and 3. I’m sure the promoters of the UFC wanted everybody to believe there were no rules except no eye gouging and biting. But if you look close, you will see many of the same rules found in kickboxing being employed. People think strikes to the groin were legal, but do you remember anybody even making attempts to front kick each other in the crotch? If they did you would see things like what happened to Gilbert Yvel when he fought Silva in ‘Pride’. The fight I’m referring to was when Silva kicked Yvel right in the cup and broke it! You could here the very loud pop when it hit. Yvel fell to the floor in extreme pain and agony. This would be a very common occurrence if this type of attack was actually legal. You also didn’t see techniques such pulling and tearing of the earlobe. No attempts to break fingers or wrists. The fighters also never made any real attempt at breaking each others legs with round or side kicks. None of the fighters tried to punch or strike the throat. While the audience may have been told that there were no rules, the fighters were probably given a different story.

[jeffrogers]

I know what your refering to. But look at Keith Hakney he striked to the groin. The karate people either didn't train in it. Or just didn't do it. Be suprised when you get that adrinline dump and people who aren't used to ring fighting or fighting in general they just go out and brawl. Which is pretty much what happend with the people in the 1st 3 UFC's. Except for the grapplers who are used to competing and the kick boxers. -Jeff

[Sim]

If I remember right, Keith Hackney was punching just above the guy’s cup. Keith Hackney is a Kenpo Karate fighter and it was cool to see him use an eagle claw technique to the grappler’s throat and win. This goes to show you that they at least allowed clawing techniques to the throat. I have used that technique against a wrestler myself and it worked great. You do have a point about some of those guys not using any technique and just brawling like idiots. One of the reasons we train in full contact san shou at our school is help deal with the pain and adrenaline rush you must deal with in a real fight.

 

Strikers are starting to dominate in Pride nowadays. Vanderli Silva is a Muay Thai stylist with BJJ training and he can end many of his fights with an overwhelming flurry of punches and kicks. As long as strikers train in the basics of ground fighting, enough to get them back on their feet without being submitted, they can force the grappler to play their game.

 

This raises another interesting point. I think a lot of the grapplers trained to defend against strikes, where as the many of the more ignorant traditional strikers did not train in how defend against grapplers. This fact alone gave the grapplers a huge advantage.

 

I think it is sad that Kung Fu was so poorly represented in the UFC. There was Jason Delucia, a guy I have a hard time believing is a legitimate kung fu stylist. I’ve seen his website and it looked like a bunch of * to me. Then there was that sloppy out of shape Wing Chun guy that didn’t look like he even had a clue what he was doing. The reason I say this is because for a stand up art, real Shaolin kung fu has excellent take downs and take down defense. The key difference, and what makes Shaolin kung fu very much a stand up art despite all the grappling, is the fact that falling to the ground with the opponent is avoided and the throws are very forceful and designed in knock the opponent out. The idea being to throw the opponent very fast and hard while staying on your feet, allowing you to move on to the next target if you are fighting more than one opponent. A great example of a good full contact kung fu fighter would be either Shawn Liu or Cung Le.

[SevenStar]

I have most of the best UFC fights on tape, including the fights from UFC 1, 2 and 3. I’m sure the promoters of the UFC wanted everybody to believe there were no rules except no eye gouging and biting. But if you look close, you will see many of the same rules found in kickboxing being employed. People think strikes to the groin were legal, but do you remember anybody even making attempts to front kick each other in the crotch? If they did you would see things like what happened to Gilbert Yvel when he fought Silva in ‘Pride’. The fight I’m referring to was when Silva kicked Yvel right in the cup and broke it! You could here the very loud pop when it hit. Yvel fell to the floor in extreme pain and agony. This would be a very common occurrence if this type of attack was actually legal. You also didn’t see techniques such pulling and tearing of the earlobe. No attempts to break fingers or wrists. The fighters also never made any real attempt at breaking each others legs with round or side kicks. None of the fighters tried to punch or strike the throat. While the audience may have been told that there were no rules, the fighters were probably given a different story.

 

1. a groin shot isn't necessarily a fight ender. I speak from experience, having had it happen to me. With the adrenaline rush, I didn't feel it until after the fight.

 

2. in the early UFC, eye gouges were not illegal. you would get a penalty, and that's it. If I eye gouged you, I would get a penalty, but if you couldn't continue, I would still win the match. Royce told me this himself.

 

3. Due to the nature of the training, no it would not be a different story if such techniques were allowed.

[SevenStar]

If I remember right, Keith Hackney was punching just above the guy’s cup. Keith Hackney is a Kenpo Karate fighter and it was cool to see him use an eagle claw technique to the grappler’s throat and win. This goes to show you that they at least allowed clawing techniques to the throat. I have used that technique against a wrestler myself and it worked great. You do have a point about some of those guys not using any technique and just brawling like idiots. One of the reasons we train in full contact san shou at our school is help deal with the pain and adrenaline rush you must deal with in a real fight.

 

which grappler, emmanuel yarbrough? he was a sumo guy...not the same. extending your arm to eagle claw if you are on the ground will result in your arm getting locked if you are going against a submission grappler. That would be why your friend didn't defent it, most likely. As a wrestler, he doesn't really train submissions. That said, Hackney is an awesome MA, I won't deny that.

 

Strikers are starting to dominate in Pride nowadays.

 

No they aren't. mixed martial artists are. guys who strike and grapple. That's the key - you must understand both.

 

Vanderli Silva is a Muay Thai stylist with BJJ training and he can end many of his fights with an overwhelming flurry of punches and kicks. As long as strikers train in the basics of ground fighting, enough to get them back on their feet without being submitted, they can force the grappler to play their game.

 

vanderlei is a brown belt in bjj... you are correct though. you need to know how to defend the grappler's tactics. That's where grappling training comes in.

 

This raises another interesting point. I think a lot of the grapplers trained to defend against strikes, where as the many of the more ignorant traditional strikers did not train in how defend against grapplers. This fact alone gave the grapplers a huge advantage.

 

kinda - grapplers didn't really train to defend the strikes in the beginning - they just covered and shot. As time went on, they began to train striking.

 

I think it is sad that Kung Fu was so poorly represented in the UFC. There was Jason Delucia, a guy I have a hard time believing is a legitimate kung fu stylist. I’ve seen his website and it looked like a bunch of * to me.

 

delucia is an excellent fighter, regardless of what you think of his style. His record is 33-19... a winning record. What's yours?

 

Then there was that sloppy out of shape Wing Chun guy that didn’t look like he even had a clue what he was doing. The reason I say this is because for a stand up art, real Shaolin kung fu has excellent take downs and take down defense.

 

I trained longfist for 4 years. You're right, it does have those things. BUT you also have to learn strikes, weapons, chi gung, iron palm... there is so much to learn that you don't get to just focus on takedowns, unless you train in a grappling only style, like the chinese style shuai chiao. the avg. judoka or shuai chiao player will have better takedowns than the avg CMA. Why? because throwing is what they do, day in and day out.

 

The key difference, and what makes Shaolin kung fu very much a stand up art despite all the grappling, is the fact that falling to the ground with the opponent is avoided and the throws are very forceful and designed in knock the opponent out. The idea being to throw the opponent very fast and hard while staying on your feet, allowing you to move on to the next target if you are fighting more than one opponent. A great example of a good full contact kung fu fighter would be either Shawn Liu or Cung Le.

 

The key difference is the training. The avg shaolin stylist doesn't do throws every day. the avg. judoka does. the avg. shuai chiao player does. the avg san shou player does. cung le's main styles were TKD and wrestling. but he fight san shou, so he throws all the time, as did shawn liu. liu was trained in shaolin, but a san shou competitor, so he trained his throws all the time...it's the training.

[SevenStar]

Most people who claim this do not realize that the rules in these competitions help “protect” a ground fighting stylist from the stand up fighter.

 

Grapplers aren't protected any more than the stand up guys. Have you not ever stopped to think that once I get you down, I can eye gouge you? have you not thought that it's WAY easier for me, because I have you on the ground and under control? when we are standing and I have free motion, you are less likely to get that eye gouge. The same applies for biting. you can strike downed opponents, knee them, etc.

 

Of course, the promoters of these competitions want you to believe that there are virtually no rules. As in kickboxing, there are no kicks or strikes allowed directly to the knee joint, ankle or groin. This is the reason why you see round kicks aimed at the thigh instead of the knee.

 

Not really. muay thai will roundhouse kick to the knee, and it's not illegal at all. It's actually pretty hard to seriously damage the knee with a kick from that angle. MT kicks more thatn the outside of the thigh - it targets the outter thight, inner thigh, ankle and in some instances the knee. you can't do a thrust kick to the knee, which can do damage if you hit them at the right moment.

 

You will also notice that there are no stomping kicks to the ankle or knee joint.

 

you can roundhouse the ankle area though. it's a tactic used in an MT takedown.

 

in, as in kickboxing, punches or strikes to the throat or side of the neck are not allowed; the reasons for this being obvious.

 

how often do you do this at full contact in your class? thought so.

 

there are also no attacks allowed to small joints such the fingers and wrists.

 

people have broken their hand fighting before - that would not cause all fighters to submit.

 

Bill Wallace has also stated that the matt in the octagon is so soft that it makes punching and kicking on it very difficult.

 

if that's true, then go compete in pride instead.

 

If there were literally no rules allowed at all in the UFC, you would see stand up fighting coming out on top more often.

 

doubtful.

 

The fights would also be much shorter.

 

doubtful.

 

 

 

My point here is that the UFC and the like are NOT examples of real fighting and should not be used as a way to prove which style is “best”.

 

that's not what it's meant to be. it's a venue for testing YOURSELF.

 

“In competition, the fight often ends on the ground. In a real fight, it ends when one person can no longer continue fighting” –Benny “The Jet”

 

and often times, those fights end up on the ground.

[Drunken Monkey]

actually, when we spar we do hit the throat and side of the neck....

 

admittedly we do pull the hits but we aim to 'finish' the movement.

 

i have to say that there have sometimes been accidents.

 

from what i've experienced, getting hit square on the back on the spine hurts a lot more than being struck on the side of the neck.

 

had me sprawled out for a good ten minutes.

 

y'know when you've banged you head and you have that deep gagging, sick feeling?

 

had that for the next hour...

[I-Self]

Fighting to save your butt is never the same as a "prepared" battle. You get months to train for the specific competiton you'll be in. You get time to become use to the fact that you're gonna meet your adversary. On the street there is a good chance you won't have a clue when this will occur or who's gonna do it.

 

That aside, professional athletes and martial sportsmen are usually better equipped to handle some form of adrenaline rush, full contact and all the ranges imaginable (if they do MMAs especially). Most dojos and such don't train for reality or sport. That's the truth. It's also true that many pro strikers like those who do K1 exclusively aren't trained to handle a proficient grappler. Take Cro Cop vs. Minotauro for example.

 

MMAs types won't use their skills to attack unsuspecting people or to start fights at your local club or bar. Well, usually not. The type of idiots who want to fight usually have brawler skills, no skills at all just no conscience or some type of wrestling background. For this reason it is good to train in a style that addresses how to deal with a street mugger and/or hugger.

 

BTW Keith Hackney is a middle of the road striker. Meaning he is decent but there are much better "traditional" strikers out there who would never use open hand strikes/punches to hit hard targets like the head. That is called desperation and faulty technique. He should know this if he is so awesome. American Kenpo is Okinawan Karate- light. It belongs in the same category as Wing Chun. He really ain't shite, trust me.

 

You can definitely be a capable striker and grappler without training full time in either. This only after you understand the rudiments of both though, with a good foundation in either. There are a few styles that teach both and always have, even some quick and effective street reliable ground techs. You probably won't find a good instructor near you though. Chi Gung, Iron Body- all that has purposes for the serious practitioner of an art. If you want to do a sport system like wrestling or boxing then good. To be mediocre in a limited martial sport is not my aim, but it is mosts nowadays.

 

The street is not padded. So whether Pride or UFC, an advantage is there for the grappler. Let me body slam or head throw a cat on the concrete and we'll see how they "break fall". In the Shaolin/Chinese inspired systems (this includes Okinawan, Filipino and Indonesian systems) throws have evil intent. In the Judo or JJ inspired ones training is on mats (tatami or otherwise) and therefore, "nice" throws are ingrained.

 

7* you can't ask someone to be objective about the thing they helped to create and the rules involved. I wouldn't take the UFC as anything but a way to get Helio's art out to the American public. Rorion became a millionaire after this "investment". They did (the Gracie's) deserve that. They do a great traditional MA,. I love BJJ and trained with Caique and still do privates with Ryron. It is good to know, but not for real life self-preservation, it takes too long and is too limited in its scope. I do it because it's fun and a different way to condition yourself. It also helps in your forms training. Adds lots of lost bunkai.

 

Most MAs is crap. Sorry.

[TJS]

Sim-

I’m sure the promoters of the UFC wanted everybody to believe there were no rules except no eye gouging and biting

 

They wanted you to belive that because it was the truth, Royce got Bit in UFC 1 and a few people got eye gouged in a few shows. Infact if you used them and won you still got a vicotry you just had to pay a fine to the person you did it too.

People think strikes to the groin were legal, but do you remember anybody even making attempts to front kick each other in the crotch?

 

Zane frazier Kneed his opponet several times in the Groin in UFC 1, Royce Gracie Kneed Kimo in the Groin sevreral times. It happened..im sure if you were in there you could have used them more effectivly...

 

 

If they did you would see things like what happened to Gilbert Yvel when he fought Silva in ‘Pride’. The fight I’m referring to was when Silva kicked Yvel right in the cup and broke it!

 

Or maybe most people dont kick like wandy...like i said just because no one landed one dosent mean it wasant legal.

No attempts to break fingers or wrists.

 

Wrong again, One of Ken shamrocks opponets attempted a standing wrist lock on him...another tried to break one of his toes when they got caught in a heel hook(brilliant move). Alot of people would grab at fingers to break holds and such...maybe they just arent as effective as you think?

The fighters also never made any real attempt at breaking each others legs with round or side kicks

 

Wrong yet again

 

Keith Hackney aimed his Side kick and Emanuels Knee and hit him several times...Ever watch Pedro Rizzo fight? He broke dan severns knee with a round kick and hurt alot of other people.

While the audience may have been told that there were no rules, the fighters were probably given a different story

 

Glad to know you were there so you can clear things up for us now.

None of the fighters tried to punch or strike the throat.

 

Not an easy target...especially since the first thing everyone learns is to tuck their chin ..

Edited January 26, 2004 by TJS

[jeffrogers]

Hmmm....