TMA vs. Grapplers

[SevenStar]

right, but I'm replying in context to the fight that TJS mentioned, not to the topic of this thread.

[Drunken Monkey]

i say,

 

just because you give something a name

 

it doesn't mean you invented it.

 

let's take the simple shoulder throw or waht ever you want to call it.

 

who do you say invented it?

 

well it can't be the japanese because the chinese arts predate them (i think, bare with me for a bit on this...)

 

but then it can't be the chinese arts because some of the greek arts are shown to be earlier.

 

my point is,

 

i'm sure that somewhere/time, way before the gracies, someone got into a 'spider guard'.

 

no one invents moves.

 

they just saw one clearly,

 

singled it out

 

and gave it a name.

[Venezolano]

no one invents a move? wtf is that?

 

then all moves that exists in all MA from where they leave? fall from heaven?

 

Like i said, could you tell me who invented spider guard if weren't Gracies?

 

i'm very curious about it

[Drunken Monkey]

that is called taking a quote and using it out of context.

 

it just sounds like you didn't even read the whole of my post.

 

if you did then it suggests that you don't agree with what i said.

 

then that means you believe that NO ONE EVER got into a positon that resembled the spider guard, ever, at all, before the gracies.

 

that's like saying no one ever punched or kicked before martial arts existed.

[Venezolano]

I read your whole post, only that i tool the parts that i thought were a little relevant (it was a hard work).

 

And yes, you're right, i don't agree with what you said.

 

say that it's the same thing that no one punched or kicked before martial art exist is a different stuff, those are things by natural, when you see someone who doesn't have any knowledge of any MA fighting, he throws punches and kicks right? but how many of them do you see using spider guard for example?

 

anyway, that's not the point, the point is, from where then, althrough you came spider guard if not from the Gracies?

[SevenStar]

that is called taking a quote and using it out of context.

 

it just sounds like you didn't even read the whole of my post.

 

if you did then it suggests that you don't agree with what i said.

 

then that means you believe that NO ONE EVER got into a positon that resembled the spider guard, ever, at all, before the gracies.

 

that's like saying no one ever punched or kicked before martial arts existed.

 

getting into the position during a transition to some other technique doesn't mean you invented it. singling it out, figuring out what to do with it, etc. is the actual inception of the technique.

 

same thing goes with your shoulder throw example. At somepoint in time, somebody was exploring ways to off balance a person and throw them to the ground, and they ran across a shoulder throw. That person is credited with creating it, as he discovered it as a useable technique.

[Warp Spider]

say that it's the same thing that no one punched or kicked before martial art exist is a different stuff, those are things by natural, when you see someone who doesn't have any knowledge of any MA fighting, he throws punches and kicks right? but how many of them do you see using spider guard for example?

 

That is a myth - there's nothing natural or instinctive about punching or kicking that makes it any different from a "spider guard." Both punching and kicking are behaviours learned from observing violent acts involving the flailing of limbs. Having said that, I think the point Drunken Monkey is trying to make is, even without training, if you grapple enough you will eventually end up in a spider-guard-like position just through chance. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you invented it.

[Venezolano]

You don't get my point Warp Spider.

 

What is more common see someone fighting throwing punches and kicks or using spider guard?

[Drunken Monkey]

some people will forever read the reads and fail to understand.

 

i've made my point, warp spider understands (despite us having our 'differences')

 

another example to illustrate.

 

let's say i have no experience with bjj but i grapple a lot and during my grappling i have found that in a certain postion i am able to do more things.

 

that position happens to be exactly the 'spider guard' as the gracies call it.

 

who invented it then?

[SevenStar]

whoever found the position useful first. in the case you just mentioned, it would be you. It was still invented though. you were grappling, ended up in that position alot and found that you could do alot with it. Your preoccupation is trying to accredit someone with inventing it. you may never find the exact person. Heck, 23423 people in different areas coulda been training on the same day, at the same time and all found that position useful. Once they add it to their system, they have indeed created a new technique. None of the others know that, so they credit themselves for inventing it. But regardless, it was created.