BBB for the martial arts.

[miguksaram]

For the past couple of months, I have been involved in a situation where a self proclaimed "grandmaster" has been not only selling false dan certificates from KHF and KTA, but has also slandered many good martial artists as well as threaten them. I am glad to say that this man has since been getting busted for many things he has lied about. The sad part is that we have yet been able to bring any criminal charges or lawsuits against him. This situation would make a great case for the government to justify regulation in the MA industry, and it is very obvious that many of us do not want that type of intervention.

 

This whole incident had me thinking about forming an organization that would act similar to the Better Business Beurea. Here is the basic concept: For martial art schools who would be members, we would verify their ranks, organizational ties and claims. That way when a consumer sees our "label" on their advertisement, they would know that the school claims were legitimate and not some fly by night operator. Our job would only be to report facts on a school, not opinoins. So if John's TKD claims to be 5th dan in KKW, then we will verify it. Now if John's TKD is a belt factory that is not our concern as we can not control someone's business.

 

This concept will be a huge undertaking. My good friend and I have already talked about some of the preliminaries just to start this thing and it would be massive. So before we decide to take this further, I am wanting to get some feed back from others if they feel this would help the martial arts industry and as some of you are school owners, I would like to know if you think you would be interested in participating in such a program? Any feedback would be welcome here or PM me at martialscience@hotmail.com. Thanks.

 

With respect,

 

Jeremy

[SBN Doug]

Yeah, that would definately be huge. And, you would have no "authority" to make anyone abide by your rules. There are so many little clubs out there too, that I don't see how you would ever keep up with it.

 

In some of our larger organizations, the WKSA for instance, all you need to do is call the organization's headquarters to verify rank and organization status. However, with all these guys starting their own systems, legitimate ones included, you really wouldn't have anyone even you could call to verify their standing, because they ARE the organization.

 

I like the idea. I just don't see it as something that could be managed.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I'll have to agree with Doug on this.

 

This topic has been a discussin in martial arts for quite a while, and there are pro's and cons to each side.

 

Personally, I'd love to see a regulating organization, as we have our share of phonys even in the small area I live in right now, and there's nothing you can do about it other than voice your opinion on it to others. But then you are "bad mouthing" another instructor/system, which is frowned upon in the arts. Not that that ever stopped me, because I basically call it as I see it. If I think a school/system is *..I say so, and I don't care who knows it.

 

Possibly the best course of action I could advise anybody about these places, is to CHECK REFERENCES, and don't take no for an answer. Don't take somebody's word that they are a 26 year old Grand Master and have been studying their art since they were in their mothers womb because she was a black belt at the time (I've heard of that before).

 

One thing that has always bothered me about a governing body for ALL martial arts is this. Who would be on it? What standards would you use to determine if GM Joe Blow is legitimate or not? What if he tells you he studied extensively in some obscure temple in Nothern China..how do you verify that? Also, what system is the most prevelant out in the world today? TKD, right? Is a majority of TKD "Inspectors" on this committee going to look at my credentials as an Okinawan stylist, and say that I'm legit..even if 98% of what I do is contrary or different to what they do?

 

Like I said, in theory, I agree with you and would love to see it. In practice however, I see a whole can of worms being opened and a lot of beuracratic * happening that could really make a major mess of things.

[miguksaram]

I see the objections that you are stating but I have to start by saying that, we would not be a governing body to anything. We would just a be a quick reference for the consumer to check to see if the instructor's claims are legit. I would hope to work with orgs like KHF, WKSA, KKW in assisting them in weeding out the imposters claiming rank from them. One of the main points of forming such an org would be to prevent any type of government regulation from coming down.

 

As far as people starting their own system, we would simply try and verify their rank in the arts that they took prior to forming their own system. That is the best we could do. At this point I don't have all the answers as this is only a concept that I have been thinking about for a while so any other suggestions or objections are welcomed. Thanks.

[Thruhiker]

As a MA we all know there are instructors that are just looking for a paycheck and for the right price you can buy your bb.

 

If we all know that you can buy your rank at some schools why make a big deal? All one has to do is make sure their instructor is a credible one.

 

If you are a tournament fighter this should be good news to you. Why? If the individual purchased their rank and you (who has worked hard for your rank) shouldn't have any difficulty defeating this individual.

 

The best way to solve this issue...don't supporting these dojo's. No students no dojo!!!

 

In a perfect world it would be nice not to worry about such individuals but Greed is a powerful force.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Like I said, I agree with you in theory, but practice is another thing. You'll be hard pressed to find many that would do the research necessary to verify claims without compensation...who's going to pay for that?

 

And please understand, I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here and not trying to bash down your idea..I think it's GREAT!

 

Here's a "for instance". I knew a guy in this state (since deceased) named Ray W. that had a "legitimate" 3rd degree BB in TKD. He founded and started an organization called the AKKA (American Korean Karate Association) and declared himself a 9th Dan GM. This guy actively sought out many other self-promoted martial artists literally around the world, and exchanged God knows how many rank certificates with them (I counted at least 8 on his wall the last time I was in his dojo) where he would give out a 5-8th Dan certificate to a guy from his AKKA in exchange for the same from them and their made-up group. So, what Ray W. ended up with was a wall full of "legitimate" 5-8th Dan black belt certificates from various other dubious organizations, which if called to verify like you're suggesting, would indeed say that yes, Ray W, does hold a 8th Dan in Crapolayu, and a 7th Dan in Bullpuckie-Do, and a 6th Dan in Garbage-r-us Kan.

 

What do you do then??? You called these organizations and they verified Ray W. as being legitimatly ranked in those arts..but it's all just CRAP!

 

And believe me, there is a lot of this kind of junk going on all around us, and it inferiorates me something BIG TIME!!! Yes, I'd love to see some sort of regulation...it's just that there is no real way, as I see it, to do it with any sort of effectiveness.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

The best way to solve this issue...don't supporting these dojo's. No students no dojo!!!

 

I agree..however, your average Joe Schmuck on the street has no way of knowing whether this guy is legitimate or not. All they see is a dojo, a sign out front, and that black belt around his waist. How is a novice supposed to know if the guy really knows what he's doing or not?

 

Well..they can't. Pure and simple.

 

We had a school here (long since closed) called Montana Freestyle which was total nonsense from the start. However, in it's 2 years or so of existance, it turned out some 15 or so black belts, all of whom were promoted to that rank in about ONE YEAR! They had about 20 students or so when I watched the class, all inexperienced people from off the street. If you ask any of those people if their instructor was legit..they'd all say yes, but I watched class several times, and within just a few minutes, I knew the guy was bogus..but what do you do? Jump up in the middle of the class and scream *???

[Martial_Artist]

So, I, Teacher A starts school B, an invented system. I am the highest rank in School B because I founded the martial art. I am the head of Organization B that oversees my other schools. Who verifies my rank? Who invalidates it?

 

School B is not TMA. Who's going to tell Teacher A that his school isn't legit, even if it is? School B is not associated with other established organizations because it is not of their organizations.

 

Who says School B is legit or not? A Teacher from School Z who happens to be a member of Established Organization C? Obviously Teacher Z will not like Teacher A because A is teaching something Z dislikes--i.e. not TMA. Teacher A may have had very little "formal" training. Who is Teacher Z to say Teacher A isn't a good MA or teacher?

 

I don't see it working. I wouldn't want it to exist. I don't think it's a good idea. The MA are not about politics or whether or not your teacher/instructor is validated by some organization. If you cannot do the research to find out what is valid or not and take what is given to you at face value you should pursue another 'hobby'. Besides I have seen plenty of "validated" instructors from "registered" organizations who I felt couldn't fight their way out of a plastic bag. Validation from an organization does not imply skill, knowldge, or competency.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

p.s.

 

I'm not trying to be abrasive, nor begin an argument. Just merely sharing my thoughts on the issue.

[miguksaram]

Ok...let me establish that all of this is conceptual right now and I don't have all the answers if you are looking for them. I also am not finding anything being said here as abrasive or argumentive, on the contrary you all are bringing up many valid points that I have been banging my head on.

 

Now Teacher A claims 1, 2, 3, Teacher B claims 3, 4, 5. Teacher B does not like Teacher A. Bottom line, I don't care. I verify Teacher A's claim do check out. He is 1, 2, 3. Teacher B's claims all check out. She is 3, 4, 5. That's it, that is where my org stops. I do not care if Teacher A is a belt factory and Teacher B is hard knocks school. That is a whole different pandora's box to open.

 

Now Teacher C starts own organization, gives own rank and claims 6, 7, 8. We will check up on claims 6, 7, 8. Do they check out? If no, we will not allow Teacher C into organization and we will keep on record the date and time we disproved claims 678. So if a consumer contacts us we will say on December 09, 2003 we found that instructor C claimed 6, 7, 8, but our research showed that he was never 6, or 7 and only partially 8. I hope this helps a bit.

[ninjanurse]

Kinda like a Title Company right?