Do these techniques give you an edge on the street?

[Treebranch]

It doesn't matter if I know how you'll react I'll feel it or see it and use it. Locks don't need to hurt to work, it's all about taking someone off balance. How do you fight when you are trying not to fall. No balance, no power. We do some full power, but not all, how can you? It doesn't mean I won't do them in a real situation. I've kicked someone in the groin before and I couldn't do that full speed in class. I've hit someone in the throat, back of neck and it worked. I really don't know what you are talking about. I can't understand why you think limiting your training to a few things is an advantage. I think it's a huge disadvantage. Unpredictability is better than predictability when it comes to a real fight. I don't play by the rules in a fight and you never know what's going to happen.

 

Also you don't use locks to tap someone out at least not the way I'm being taught. If have the lock on you are already in a bad place. Depending on the lock I can kick to your face since you're bent over, I can use it as a takedown by stomp kicking your support leg out. I can drop my weight straight down breaking the arm. There are so many things you can do when you understand how to use it. Note that kick and strikes are still possible while grappling. I think you've been programmed to think a certain way for the ring, but you have to think outside the box in real life.

[SevenStar]

It doesn't matter if I know how you'll react I'll feel it or see it and use it.

 

Now you're seeing things the right way. That's not due to the technique you used, but due to the fact that you're trained. the edge is training in general, not any specific technique, which is what I was saying earlier in this thread.

 

How do you fight when you are trying not to fall. No balance, no power.

 

I agree there, grappling is built on that.

 

We do some full power, but not all, how can you? It doesn't mean I won't do them in a real situation. I've kicked someone in the groin before and I couldn't do that full speed in class. I've hit someone in the throat, back of neck and it worked.

 

No, it doesn't mean that you won't do them. It means you aren't sure of the effect, or how successful you will be with it. For example, I've taken full shots to the groin in fights and not felt it at all until after the fight. Once again, not a fight ender, and not really an advantage, which is the topic of this thread.

 

I really don't know what you are talking about. I can't understand why you think limiting your training to a few things is an advantage. I think it's a huge disadvantage.

 

A huge disadvantage how? Do I need to know a phoenix eye to knock you out? No. Do I need to know a leopard paw to hit you in the throat? No. There are advantages and disadvantages to each methodology. The thing is, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, not all techniques a person knows are ingrained into their muslce memory. consequently, they won't be using them in fights. They will use the few techniques they use on a regular basis. Consequently, there is wasted time when you try to focus on so many techniques. That's not how you teach someone to fight effectively QUICKLY and not any way to give someone an advantage, which once again is the topic of this thread.

 

Unpredictability is better than predictability when it comes to a real fight. I don't play by the rules in a fight and you never know what's going to happen.

 

If a person knowing only a few techniques is predictable, then they aren't that skilled, IMO. trust me, an MT guy is no more predictable than any other practitioner out there.

 

Also you don't use locks to tap someone out at least not the way I'm being taught. If have the lock on you are already in a bad place. Depending on the lock I can kick to your face since you're bent over, I can use it as a takedown by stomp kicking your support leg out. I can drop my weight straight down breaking the arm. There are so many things you can do when you understand how to use it. Note that kick and strikes are still possible while grappling. I think you've been programmed to think a certain way for the ring, but you have to think outside the box in real life.

 

that has nothing to do with being programmed for the ring. No locks aren't used to tap someone on the street. obviously, you keep applying it and snap. I also realize that you can kick, elbow etc while appling locks- traditional background, remember? That being said, knowledge is not necessarily power, as I've been saying, and also as johnny is saying. Especially in the case of pressure points. Many of them are nuisances at best, and not fight enders by any means. Once again, there's no real advantage, and certainly not any definite edge.

[SevenStar]

Also, take beginners into consideration. you can't show a beginner spleen 4 and expect him to hit it in combat. Same goes for most other pressure points. These are things that aren't learned quickly. Basic, core techniques are the key. For that very reason, I'd pick a 6 month thai boxer over a 6 month TMA any day. Once again, their training is their edge, not how many techniques they know.

[Treebranch]

Sevenstar said: A huge disadvantage how? Do I need to know a phoenix eye to knock you out? No. Do I need to know a leopard paw to hit you in the throat? No. There are advantages and disadvantages to each methodology. The thing is, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, not all techniques a person knows are ingrained into their muslce memory. consequently, they won't be using them in fights. They will use the few techniques they use on a regular basis. Consequently, there is wasted time when you try to focus on so many techniques. That's not how you teach someone to fight effectively QUICKLY and not any way to give someone an advantage, which once again is the topic of this thread.

 

O.K. I don't even know what you are talking about. We are talking about the list I made, not the phoenix eye?

 

Practice and training is the key which to we all agree, but what you are training for and what I am training for are probably different. I've used some of what on the list in a real situation and some fighters in the early UFC's used them as well and were successful. Stomping someone while they are down, elbowing and striking to the back of the head, those things work just fine. Kicks to the groind will definitely cause a response that you can take advantage of even a fake there works great.

 

I don't use pressure points, but if they annoy you they are doing there job.

[SevenStar]

stomps are fine. I wouldn't put definite faith in the groin kick though. When Adrenaline is flowing, it's just not always effective. As for the phoenix eye and spleen 4, I'm just listing techniques in general, not necessarily the ones on your list.

 

If a pressure point annoys you, that doesn't mean it's doing it's job. I can resist those all day. If it annoys you and produces a reaction, then it's doing it's job.

 

As far as what I train for, I just train. What I train has and will continue to serve me well in both the ring and the street, so I don't train specifically for one or the other. What do you train for?

[Treebranch]

Pressure points the way I understand them just cause a slight reaction just to buy you a split second in order to do something effective, like a takedown or strike.

 

I train for real situations as best I can. I don't really see my self as a competitor, It's just not what I'm about. I respect ring fighters, believe me they are the last people I would want to fight. But if it happens I'll just have to do what I can. I do want to find a place where I can go full contact with someone with gear of course. I eventually will add some BJJ to my skills if I don't see some serious groundfighting in Budo Taijutsu very soon. We've done some, but I don't feel it's enough yet.

[Treebranch]

You can never have too much ammo.

[jeffrogers]

Interesting thread. Both Treebranch and sevenstar have some good points.

 

In Pride I remmeber they changed the rule were you can knee an opponent who is on all fours. Vanderli sivla quickly took advantage of that and ko'ed his oppenent.

 

I think also comes to mind is the humanity in people. Alot of times people in comeption think striking like how they spar and so they react as such. Even if they spar with eye gouges and biteing techniques by padding up alot and using some sort of covering for the face so they can practiice such technquies. The humanity of people to not use them in competion takes over. Unless y our an * like Mike Tyson then its a diffrent story. That crazy mofo will bite you. As has been proven in the past. lol!

 

training for compt nad street are diffrent. One is most likely in street fith your not going to fight a good calibur trained fighter. Weather it be boxer, wrestling or "martial artist" but who knows. Thats an unknown so that its one reaosn i like MMA you fight people who are trained. Your not playing "Tag: your not going light contact your in there to dominate and win adn test y our skills. Although you can't test every skill you learned based on the rules of that venue or event.

 

Royce in the begging took those guys out of there element. ground work wasn't highly taught and nor was it as technicaly taught. Gracie family changed that.

 

Also in tern gracie's have been losing lately. Why because wrestlers and people are learning the ground game enough to defend and get back into there element of stand up. Take Renzo vs. Henderson. MMA events are a vehicle to test your skills. You don't have to do an event though to be silled. but your training methods form eh fighers should be incorprated in TMA. some decent conditiong of the body, cardio and strength trianing. Pad work, and such. Also big thing I like about BJJ is the resistrance of the oppent to your techniques because he is trying to get at you too. Or even not necairlly trying to get at you maybe your working drills and hei coutnering or resisting a bit. It makes you work more nad find the little detals and the feel of hte opponent to make your moves work more effectly.

 

I think that resistance or countering type philosophy and training method is not in TMA as much. I think personally alot of people like to stay in there own imaingary world. Reality sucks so me times. Alot of benefits come with MMA type training. Boxing is incorportated because boxers more then any body take hits give them back. Learn to move slip, weave and bob. which are importat aspect.

 

Even though that alone won't save you. Your stances can lead you vulnerable for kicks to the legs or take downs. So you got to modify the moves. Same with JIu-Jitsu. Royler graice for example. quite a few guys played his game of grappling when he was so easily open for a hit. because he wasn't tight to his oppent or controling his body right. Kind of interesting. As well as he got beaten down by Sakuraba because of it.

 

I think the person needs to modify and adjust there training. to be effective. One thing I like about MMA events you go against other partners of diffrent training methods or instructions. As oppesed to your own gym or dojo/dojang/kwoon/school or what ever you want to call it. but honestly neither MMA or TMA guys can get to cocky as far as training for street. Because in reality. Weapons involved, your kids or wife/husband maybe with you and the gun is pointed at them and the attacker is closer to them out of your reach. the scenerio factors alot of stuff in. suprise attack. Some one runs in throws elbow to back of your head when your distracted your out cold. Training in general is good. If you like what you do great. But if your talking training for the street. You can only train so much. Were not invicible.

 

But if you want to test your skill against another trained person diffrent story. Or see which technqiues are more useful at the time again diffrent story between TMA and MMA. Just my opinion.

 

-Jeff

 

So

[Treebranch]

Good points jeffrogers.

[jeffrogers]

thanks. You do TaiJutsu treebranch. You under Masakai Hatsumi's group? -Jeff