When & Why To Fight or Surrender?

[bigpopparob2000]

A while ago (to long for me to remember where or when I saw this), I saw a news documentary show (i.e., 20/20) where they discussed the issue of what to do in the event of being confronted by an armed opponent.

 

The scenario went like this. There were several people used as test subjects (who were aware that they were going to be tested on this issue-they just didn't know how or when) who were each tested separately. A test subject would be walking out of his place of employment with a female co-worker (who was aware of what was about to happen). All of a sudden, the assailant would come up to them, pull out a gun, and demand the test subject's wallet. Provided that he complied and handed over his wallet, the assailant would then demand that he lie down on the ground so he could abduct the woman.

 

Several of the test subjects tried to fight the assailant to protect the woman from what they thought would ultimately be her being raped and/or killed. Needless to say, those subjects would have been shot had the incident been real. A couple of the more conservative ones lay down on the parking lot, and as the assailant kidnapped the woman they pulled out a cell phone and called the police. One pulled out a pen and scribbled the license plate number of the assailant's car on his hand.

 

Granted, these individuals weren't experts on self-defense. However, what would you ("you" being the martial artist who has been studying self-defense for quite a while) do in such a scenario?

 

I feel torn. On the one side, I've learned about disarming an opponent with a hand gun, and I don't regularly carry around a pen or cell phone with me. Furthermore, my initial thoughts would be to do whatever it took to protect my female friend from being raped. That makes me want to take the attacker on.

 

On the other side, I've heard many tales about self-defense techniques working just fine in the dojo but failing on the street. If I got killed trying to protect her, there might be no one to call the police. That makes me want to comply with the attacker's demands.

 

But the very thought of surrendering to a deadbeat like the one in this scenario sends me back over to the other side. First off, the police might not be able to catch him until it's too late, where as I have the potential to end the situation before anything bad happens. Secondly, one of the reason's I got into the martial arts was so I could protect those I care about and stand up for what's right. I mean, I've heard an awful lot about how I should just hand over my wallet when held up by someone with a gun or knife. But now, for some reason, being told things like that makes me feel like I'm being told to let myself be run over by the scum of society. Isn't there something to be said for standing up for what's right regardless of the materiality of the issue and not letting bullies and thugs have their way? Does cowering from using my self defense in such situations violate who I am as a martial artist?

[delta1]

I don't think there's a simple answer to your question, and I don't know what I'd do if faced with that situation. But I do know the values I'd use to make a decission. First, you'd be correct in handing over your wallet. You'd be right in taking your chances alone, but in this scenario you have to consider the safety of someone else. So, unless there's some overwhelming reason to take the risk, give it up.

 

The more complex issue is whether to lie down or to try to stop the bad guy (BG) from abducting the woman. First, if you lie down, you give up any chance of defending you or her. He may just decide you are such a worthless worm that he wants to shoot you any how. Are you willing to complety put your life in the hands of a scumbag like this? Also, what do you think your chances are of disarming, then subduing the BG? Further, you need to do this in such a way that the gun does not at any time dureing the disarm point at her or any other bystanders. Can you accomplish this? (Hint: if you havn't practiced it, probably not. If you have practiced it, maybe, maybe not- it ain't that easy). If you comply, then call the police, they may be busy, maybe not. They may get there in a timely manner, they may not. They may find her in time, or not. They might successfully rescue her, or not. She may or may not suffer significant mental and emotional trauma, even if she escapes physical trauma. Odds are that if she is abducted, this is going to go bad for her- it's really just a matter of how bad. If you lay down, are you ready to look her in the eyes if she comes back? Are you ready to put up with the spoken or unspoken recriminations of co-workers and friends? Can you live with yourself?

 

Of course, there are other things to think about. I'm sure we all know some women that might tempt you to smile as you lay down. What about the law? There's allways the chance you'll get arrested for defending yourself, or sued if something goes wrong, or even if it doesn't. Do you consider these things? I hope I wouldn't, but I really don't know. I've stood up for total strangers before, but not against a gun. And I can't even guarantee what I'd do the next time in a less than deadly encounter, let alone this scenario. I hope I'd do the right thing, and that I don't make too big a mess of it.

[1ONEfighting]

I would personally find it hilarious when the victim viciously disarms the assailant and cripples him before the co-worker can tell him it was all a test.

[Bart the Lover]

To answer honestly, I personally would do what the attacker wanted. I am

 

very unlikely to meet someone armed with a gun (thank God), but if I did

 

I have zero training in dealing with it. I simply do not have the knowledge

 

to effectively disarm the attacker. Obviously, I would do the

 

non-confrontational things--calling the police, getting the numberplate.

 

If I was with someone close to me (family member), then it would be

 

different. I would do everything possible to stop the abduction, training or

 

no training.

 

delta1 wrote:

I'm sure we all know some women that might tempt you to smile as you lay down.

 

Eh? What are you saying here?

[delta1]

BtL, I can think of a couple of women I've worked with that I'd be tempted to let the jerk take 'em away. Problem is, every time a BG successfully pulls something like this off, he gets a little more sure of himself, a little less nervouse, and a lot more dangerouse. Just one more thing to consider, though in that moment I doubt I'd be thinking about it in those terms.

[sano]

To answer honestly, I personally would do what the attacker wanted. I am

 

very unlikely to meet someone armed with a gun (thank God)

 

why do you say that? where do you live? one thing i know is anything is possible anywhere.

[Drunken Monkey]

then there's the point if a guy really does intend to shoot you, he probably won't wave it about in your face first.

[Treebranch]

First I would give him the wallet, but once I knew he wants to take her, I would just reserve myself as dead and go for it and tell her to run. We do trian for this, but more than likely I'll be shot or killed. I'd rather die fighting, than getting shot while I'm laying down. My fear turns into anger really fast which is bad in many cases. That's of course if she is a loved one. I can't say what I'd do if she is just a co-worker. It still would be hard for me to live with that, especially if she were raped or killed or both.

[Warp Spider]

Depending on how experienced this bad guy is, there may be an opening when you hand over your wallet. If they want you to hand it to them, then of course you are in a position with your hands very close to their gun. If it has a "stick" type trigger (I can't remember what the "official name is") you can jam your finger behind the trigger so it can't be pulled. That of course, won't work on a full trigger, because it's not possible to stick your finger behind a full trigger. (well, not without disassembling the gun )

 

Alternatively, if they want you to toss it to them, you can toss it a bit to their gun hand side, meaning they'll have to use their gun hand to catch it. (meaning they'll have to take it off you for a second)

 

If he wants you to put it on the ground and back up, that's probrably the smartest thing for him or her to do. In that case, depending on how they pick it up you might have an opening. Failing that, you could try surrendering and then shooting him or her in the back as they make their getaway.

[Bart the Lover]

sano wrote:

why do you say that? where do you live? one thing i know is anything is possible anywhere.

 

Beacause it's true, sano. I am very unlikely to meet someone with a gun. You're going to have to trust me on this assessment.

 

Of course it's possible. That is why I said 'very unlikely' rather than

 

'never'.

 

delta1: What kind of people have you worked with?! I can't think of anyone

 

I would be tempted to leave to their fate (if I could do something about it).

 

My inaction isn't maybe the moral thing to do, and it's certainly not very

 

noble. It's motivated by self-preservation. But how I felt about my

 

colleague wouldn't enter into my decision.

 

Regards,

 

Bart the Lover