Generating Power

[Ripper]

Ripper

 

I would certainly be interested to hear how muscles speed and gravity give you more power. Especially why more muscles equal more power. Please explain.

 

You are giving the answer yourself in the next paragraph.

This works by f=ma or force = mass * acceleration.

[Drunken Monkey]

we are arguing around the same thing here.

 

like i said, you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter whether you are grounded or not because all that matters is muscle strength.

 

this is what i disagree with.

 

useful power includes being 100% grounded.

 

you seem to say it doesn't matter.

[Sasori_Te]

Yes I agree that muscles give you more mass if that's what you're getting at. So does fat. However muscles don't neccessarily help with your acceleration, and in a lot of cases( let's say bodybuilder's though I know it's a general statement) too much muscle will hinder acceleration. Our main point is grounding, or shifting your center downward is an easy way to gain both acceleration and put more available mass into a technique. Grounding isn't the only way to add force but it is a very effective way to do it. It is also a method that can and should be used with other methods to gain force. Rotational inertia being an example off of the top of my head. DM said it without saying it in a lengthy way: "Useful power (I prefer the term force) includes being 100% grounded.

[Ripper]

we are arguing around the same thing here.

 

like i said, you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter whether you are grounded or not because all that matters is muscle strength.

 

this is what i disagree with.

 

Now where did I say that? Offcourse you need to be grounded. I agree with that. I'm only saying that the ground cannot give you any MORE power than you put into it. I'm saying that you cannot get MORE grounded. You can shift with your point of gravity, but this doesn't mean you are more grounded. It is true that the more power you give, the more reaction force you need from the ground. The only reason you need the ground for is as a reaction force or your motion wouldn't have much power. You need the ground to get the maximum of your power.

useful power includes being 100% grounded.

 

you seem to say it doesn't matter.

Again, where did I say that? As I said above you need to be grounded. And I also agree it should be 100%. If it was less, let's say you slipped, your power would be reduced.

 

To sum it up; you need to be grounded but you cannot get more grounded. Can we agree on this?

[Ripper]

Our main point is grounding, or shifting your center downward is an easy way to gain both acceleration and put more available mass into a technique.

 

I wrote this on page 4:

 

An example:

 

First stand in a deep forward stance and punch a makiwara or a punching bag with your backside arm (for karate: zenkutsu dachi and qyaku tsuki).

 

Now do the same thing but as you punch, lift your front leg up and hit the bag. Land your foot afterwards.

 

Then feel the difference in power.

 

An even easier example:

 

do the same thing but instead of punching you push your fist against a wall. then pull up your front leg again. Notice the difference.

 

Those are examples of putting more mass in the technique.

 

If you are punching and merely shifting your center downward you are directing energy vertically. When you are punching you need to have the energy horizontally. So that way you are losing power.

[Drunken Monkey]

hmm, one thing strikes me about your examples is that against a moving target it might not be so effective.

 

it has also just occured to me that i'm arguing wing chun with your karate and that we do things very differently on a basic level (regarding structure, mobility, interruption etc etc).

 

for us grounded isn't just about lower centre of mass.

 

part of it is purely structural.

 

this is the thing that we have to train.

 

with perfect structure you can resist a frontal push standing on one leg.

 

the thing is, this takes time and even when you can do it, you're not going to 100% of the time when you need it.

 

so for us, there are different degrees of 'structural integrity' (or more/less grounded).

 

slightly more complex than lowering centre of mass.

 

the reason we rely on strucure do much is that we don't punch standing still (as you do in your example).

 

instead we aim to (kinda) push forward with every move to prevent you from having space to do anything.

 

to do this effectively, you need a 'perfect' structure.

 

that way, everytime you make a move forward, you are using near enough 100% of your bodyweight behind your movement while the opponent is effectively, trying to push against the ground.

[Sasori_Te]

Ripper if you combine dropping your center with circular movements (rotational inertia) you can redirect the force from the downward movement into the horizontal punch. There are other ways to accomplish power from grounding but frankly I'm tired of posting on this thread. Good luck to you however you choose to try and gain extra force.

[JerryLove]

Then why are you on this discussion forum if you don't care about other people opinions......?

 

Your question does not actually interact with my statement. If dolphins are so smart, how come the live in igloos?

So now all of a sudden it is we? Does this mean you are the spokesman of everyone else?

Is there a topic-related question in there?

That's the attitude I was talking about. You are saying that I can come up with any valid argument and I still remain wrong, just because I don't agree with you.

 

No, you remain wrong because your statement is untrue. Any valid argument which conflicts with reality must be based on false presuppositoin. Your conclusions are not in sync with emperically observed reality and are therefore erronious, no matter their support.

However muscles don't neccessarily help with your acceleration, and in a lot of cases( let's say bodybuilder's though I know it's a general statement) too much muscle will hinder acceleration.

 

A lack of flexability will hinder speed, but the axiom that musles slow you down is a false one. Ever look at a gymnast? A boxer?

I agree with that. I'm only saying that the ground cannot give you any MORE power than you put into it.

 

If you root, you hit harder. This is observable fact. Cloak it in whatever logic you desire; use whatever explanation you enjoy; it remans true. I suppose there comes a point where one cannot learn to "root more"; but I can only think of a couple of people in my experience near there... then we start talking about how breathing better improves your hit.

[Sasori_Te]

You are correct. I meant that muscle in some cases hinders flexibility which in turn hinders even relaxed movements. Good example too. My ex-wife was both a gymnast and martial artist. She was extremely fast.

[Ripper]

for us grounded isn't just about lower centre of mass.

 

part of it is purely structural.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by structure. Do you mean the position of your body behind the technique? Like the example of Jerry earlier in this thread about how to push a car? Isn't then structure the same as proper alignment?