Sasori_Te Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I got the idea for this post from another that was posted recently. What do we as karateka mean when we say that we are learning a new kata? At what point can we say that we know a kata well? I know the movements and the bunkai to around 20 kata ( off the cuff estimate ). I can't really say that I "know" them though. I'm still learning them every time that I practice them. A new oyo or application will invariably present itself to me when I least expect it. I read posts from people that say they would get bored if they had to do only one kata for an indefinite period of time. Let me pose a question then. What would you do if your style or any style suddenly changed their way of thinking and limited your course of study to one or two or even four kata? Would you continue training or would you quit because you're bored? I could continue but I'll stop here and wait for your answers. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aefibird Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I think most people say that they 'know' a kata when they woulkd be able to perform it straight through to someone. Obviously, knowing the movements and actually 'knowing' a kata are two separate things. Like you said, new oyo will present themselves at any time. Plus, the more a person thinks about kata then they realise more about kata, but they also realise that they don't know everything and theres still stuff to learn and discover! Like the song says... "all I know is that I don't know" As for the sticking with my style if it dropped most of its kata, yes, I would stay with it. Some styles only have a 'small' number of kata to start with, compared to other forms. That leads onto another question - if you could DROP one kata from your styles 'list' of kata, which one would it be and why? For me, I'd ditch Heian Godan - I never liked it when learning it and went through hours of agony trying to get it right. I know there are more technically difficult kata, but for me that one is the hardest to do - I even find Gojushiho-Sho easier!! Go figure... "Was it really worth it? Only time and death may ever tell..." The Beautiful South - The Rose of My CologneSheffield Steelers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G95champ Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Thanks Knowing a kata and Knowing a kata are differant things. Anyone can memorize a set pattren of moves and preform at a very high speed and look like the best Martial Artisit ever. However that is not know a kata. Yes the first thing you must do is learn and preform the kata very well without pause. However to KNOW the kata you must be able to teach it. By teach it I mean know several sets of applications, understand where it came from and why it is in your style. Be albe to see how it connects to other kata and what hidden techinques are in it. There is much more to knowing a kata and KNOWING a kata. Its more mental than anyting. This is one of the major reasons I am so against kid black belts because their mind can't think in the higher leavels to develope this stuff. (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori_Te Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 I agree with your reasoning concerning younger dan ranks. As a matter of fact I think your entire post was right on G95. Thanks for the response. aefibird - If I dropped any kata it would be the entire Heian/ Pinan series. They are relatively new and all of the techniques are taken from other "more difficult" kata. These kata were introduced by Itosu, Anko as a way to ease into kata training. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G95champ Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Thanks Sasori Te However I do disagree with your statement about getting rid of the Heian Series. Only for this reason. We are going to have young kids who can't do the advanced kata and were going to have older people who physically can't prefrom some of the moves in kata like Empi, Kanku Sho, Unsu, etc. I think for that reason alone the Heian kata a very important. I teach the Taikoyokia series as well espically to kids below 10. At our Shotokan dojo we do 29 kata. https://www.anglefire.com/wv2/wvka is the list of when we do what. (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathal Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 To me kata symbolize our knowledge and capability of the techniques of our style. Then, yes learning bunkai for these katas does open your eyes to new methods of approaching situations and forcing you to think on your feet. I feel that I keep learning something whenever I do the kata that I know and how it can be applied to real-life situations. If my dojo limited me to only a few kata I'd have to examine that decision to see how it applied to the philosphy and if it was really a good thing. If it wasn't in my own opinion maybe I'd move on to another dojo. Hard to tell really. Regarding removing kata I don't feel I know enough to make a decision. So far my opinion on that is each have something to teach us. .The best victory is when the opponent surrendersof its own accord before there are any actualhostilities...It is best to win without fighting.- Sun-tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori_Te Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 G95 I submit to you this then. If a person can do all 5 pinans or heians, what kata further along could they not do? I think kids are able to better handle the Naihanchi katas than say pinan yondan or pinan godan. Of course, this is just my opinion. As for older people, any kata technique can be modified to fit age or handicap. That's what I think makes karate so great. It is truly a personal art. No two people do it exactly the same way. A block is a strike is a lock is a throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stl_karateka Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 At our Shotokan dojo we do 29 kata. https://www.anglefire.com/wv2/wvka is the list of when we do what. You should WARN people about the questionable popup material KarateForums.com Sempai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekyMusician Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Kata, like everything, is always presenting new ways of thinking, new applications etc. so to be philosophical no one will ever really "know" a kata, but if we're going to use that train of thought, then no one will ever really "know" anything. No musician will ever "know" a piece of music, no movie critic will ever "know" a movie...there will always be new discoveries to be made. Personally, I think you can be considered to "know" a kata if you know all the movements and know applications for most of the movements, at least. Anything after that simply becomes knowing a kata very well, knowing it extremely well etc. As for me, right now I've only really tackled the 5 Heians. I've tried some more advanced katas and found myself just a tad confused, but I hate Heian Nidan for some reason. The other Heians don't really bother me, but Heian Nidan is EVIL!! Smile. It makes people wonder what you've been up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G95champ Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 What pop up material? There may be an angelfire add but nothing bad. If so I promise you its not from our site because it don't pop up when I go there. (General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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