The idea of teaching kids...with a spin

[kenpo4life]

Guys,

 

I know that a lot of you have made quite a few posts on what age you should teach kids. A lot of people speak on the subject somewhere along the lines of" dont teach anything real, they dont have the disciplline." It seems to me that the millions os kids in Asia study martial arts just fine. I started at a young age as well. Granted, I was not learning to gouge eyes and rip out throats, but I did learn the basics. As a disciplined student and instructor of martial arts, I am appalled by how so many people let children "play" with a gi on and call it martial arts. There is soccer, gymnastics, and a host of other activities that kids can do besides MA. No disrespect to the other activities, but martial arts is a whole different level. I would be upset if I took my children to learn MA, and fought out that I could be "teaching " them the same thing at home. Whaddya think guys?

[monkeygirl]

Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't a lot of martial arts schools in Asia kind of like boarding schools? Obviously, they're not all like that, but I know I've heard of a few. When it comes to being serious martial artists, a lot of these kids spend their entire lives living at the dojo, learning at the dojo, etc. In America, we don't really have anything like that. If we teach a child to gouge someone's eyes out, they might go home and try it. We have no idea, because we aren't with them 24/7, and we have no control over their discipline. We have no control over what their parents do, nothing.

 

If a child lives at the dojo, the sensei becomes his father, sort of.

[kenpo4life]

A lot of schools in Asia are like boarding schools, but most are not. Granted, a lot of kids start early in life, but with most mcdojos that I see here, the ages are about the same. Check out my thread, I said that I DONT suggest that we teach kids some lethal stuff, but there is a hug gap between "playing" martial arts, and drilling in the fundamentals at a real school. Also you have not really addressed my question which essentially is: Do you feel that most schools are baby-sitting under the guise of martial arts training?

[John G]

As a disciplined student and instructor of martial arts, I am appalled by how so many people let children "play" with a gi on and call it martial arts.

 

Teaching kids (3 to 6 yr olds) is the same as teaching adults, the only difference is the delivery method. A gi is only a piece of cloth; it won’t save you’re life if you’re attracted on the street and it wont save your life if your trapped in a burning building so in respect to kids who have little or no concept of tradition, why so much reverence for a uniform that they only take out to train in?

 

MA as you know is like an wheel, to reach a certain level one must first have the desire to attain the level, then one must have the physical fitness/ agility to perform the tasks required, then comes the learning and understanding of technique, then finally the tactical ability to apply technique taught without thought. Once this level is attained the cycle starts again. Note that none of this can be successfully achieved without the tutelage and social interaction between student / instructor and student / student.

 

Typically our little dragons (3 to 6 yr olds) class starts first, I encourage play before the class starts by supplying toys (skipping ropes, balls, jolly hoppers, bop bags etc) and observe the social interaction between the students. This not only gives me a handle on who’s shy or aggressive but also expels a lot of energy (nervous or otherwise) from the student prior to the class. To the uninitiated seeing a class full of 3 to 6 yr olds running around playing and yelling seems quite daunting, until I explain the theory behind it.

 

Once the class is brought to attention and the toys put away there is quiet, and the unruly mob becomes attentive students. I find by mixing important lessons interspersed with physical or mental games holds their attention for well over an hour before fatigue sets in (mine primarily).

 

Little dragons is about having fun and developing skills that may some day save their life and or the lives of others. Along side basic punches, stances and blocks some of the other class lessons deal with tolerance and respect for each other, stranger danger (BTW eye gouging etc are taught), what to do if lost, bitten by a snake or spider, attacked by a dog, bullied by other kids, caught in an earth quake or in a bush fire (relevant to our area), house fire, vehicle accident, how to use a phone (home/mobile) to contact emergency service and what to say, what to if awoken by burglars, taken away in a car by strangers, awareness of dangers around the home (poisons, knives, fire, electricity, pools etc) and at the play ground (needles, lightning, strangers etc).etc…

 

It’s a pleasure to see little dragons advance to juniors (7-13 yrs old) with a basic skill set where the more traditional form of MA is taught, it makes the transition to the more disciplined side of MA easier for both student and instructor.

 

If the big gi god were to strike me down for allowing kids to play in the hallowed cloth, then let it be. I will never tire of watching children play and I hope in some small way I will have helped them to develop into decent human beings.

 

Respectfully,

[monkeygirl]

A lot of schools in Asia are like boarding schools, but most are not. Granted, a lot of kids start early in life, but with most mcdojos that I see here, the ages are about the same. Check out my thread, I said that I DONT suggest that we teach kids some lethal stuff, but there is a hug gap between "playing" martial arts, and drilling in the fundamentals at a real school. Also you have not really addressed my question which essentially is: Do you feel that most schools are baby-sitting under the guise of martial arts training?

 

Sorry if I was unclear, I'll try to fix that:

 

I know you weren't suggesting that we teach kids lethal techniques, and I didn't mean to portray as such. What I said still holds true, however. If the kid is bratty enough, it doesn't matter what the technique is: he'll use it to hurt someone. Trust me on this one!! We used to have a 5-year-old who, in the 5 minutes before class began, would run around the mats attacking the other students, and the instructors! Most of his classes consisted of sitting in the corner .

 

My point is, the dojo is NOT the major source of discipline, the parents are...and teaching children discipline seems to be an area that parents are seriously lacking in these days. 2 hours a week of dojo time just can't compare to the other 166 hours a week that the parents spend spoiling their kids. My school was lucky enough to only ever have two or three of those kids at a time, but if your entire class is full of little heathens, what can you do? The class is trapped; the instructor doesn't want to teach techniques that the kids are going to turn around and use at day care...it doesn't exactly look good for the school. True, a violent kid would be knocking around his day care buddies anyway, but it's the moral equivalent (excuse me for exaggerating this slightly) of giving a wife-beater a gun. Now he has a tool, and now it's YOUR fault.

 

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

If you're lucky enough to have a nice class like JohnG's seemed to be, then you can teach them lots of things...we often taught Stranger-Danger and Fire Safety when the bullies left. Why didn't we just ask him to leave, then? My dojo was a McDojo to the extent that its owners were very money-oriented. The only time the school EVER asked a student to leave was when that student's grandfather consistently became unbearable (disrupting class from the parent's seating, even shoving one of my best friends into a coke machine, a 14-year-old assistant instructor at the time). My older brother, the head instructor of the lil' dragons class, had a talk with the most violent kid's mother. She basically told him that she brought the kid there for discipline because she knew he was out of hand. She wasn't even trying to discipline him at home. Besides making the kid sit down a lot, there was nothing else that we could do.

 

I think these spoiled, abusive children force McDojos and dojos like mine (relatively legitimate training but very greedy) to "play" at martial arts and babysit. What else can they do?

 

I hope that long-winded post clears things up a bit.

[kenpo4life]

Monkeygirl,

 

I see what you are saying. But I am not suggesting that a dojo can make up for the lack of discipline in a childs life. I am suggesting that most of the schools that I have recently observed do not attempt to teach anything that will even be remotely linked to martial arts skills later on. I mean, playing in a generic sense will help a child become more coordianated, but not in a way that will help their MA training later on. I am not suggesting that a child can not be taught in methods different than the ones used for adults. I am just saying that children should at least learn the fundamentals for their training, and a free-for-all type melee is not the best way. I have taught children before, and it seems to me that children live up to the expectations amazingly well. I think that most schools underestimate the abilities of children.

 

Johhny,

 

I am not saying that the gi is the main thing here. It is just that children are often enrolled in MA classes because the training is expected to make them some kind of wonderkid. I think that a lot of mcdojo owners make a lot of money by letting kids run around willy-nilly and then call it martial arts. I am not saying in any capacity that the programs that you teach in your school are of no value, on the contrary. I believe though, that many schools do not even do these things. I think that with a lot of schools with after school martial arts programs, there is a lot of sizzle and no steak. The gi in my opinion is only cloth , but there should be in my opinion a level of integrity that goes along with it. Playing USEFUL kids games is an excellent use of time IMO, but unfortunately, that is usually not the case.

[backfist]

Monkeygirl,

 

I see what you are saying. But I am not suggesting that a dojo can make up for the lack of discipline in a childs life. I am suggesting that most of the schools that I have recently observed do not attempt to teach anything that will even be remotely linked to martial arts skills later on. I mean, playing in a generic sense will help a child become more coordianated, but not in a way that will help their MA training later on. I am not suggesting that a child can not be taught in methods different than the ones used for adults. I am just saying that children should at least learn the fundamentals for their training, and a free-for-all type melee is not the best way. I have taught children before, and it seems to me that children live up to the expectations amazingly well. I think that most schools underestimate the abilities of children.

 

Johhny,

 

I am not saying that the gi is the main thing here. It is just that children are often enrolled in MA classes because the training is expected to make them some kind of wonderkid. I think that a lot of mcdojo owners make a lot of money by letting kids run around willy-nilly and then call it martial arts. I am not saying in any capacity that the programs that you teach in your school are of no value, on the contrary. I believe though, that many schools do not even do these things. I think that with a lot of schools with after school martial arts programs, there is a lot of sizzle and no steak. The gi in my opinion is only cloth , but there should be in my opinion a level of integrity that goes along with it. Playing USEFUL kids games is an excellent use of time IMO, but unfortunately, that is usually not the case.

I understand where you're coming from, kenpo. Having trained in Kajukenbo since childhood, I learned martial arts training was serious. Very little laughter or play.

 

But one thing that I learned as an adult, and as a hopefully successful instructor, is that kids might not need the "serious" instruction that we received. Basics; fundamentals? Yes. Absolutely. But there are ways of reaching kids and having them maximize their potentials for success while they have as much fun as they can. The serious side of martial arts will become more evident as the kids mature.

[koreantiger81]

I think the most important thing is to realize that kids have a different motivation to learn, than us adults. We have our own goals for these kids, perhaps to mature into talented martial artists, gain confidence, or be self-disciplined. These are only OUR motives and hopes, not theirs.

 

Yes, I believe in teaching them the basics and promoting self-discipline so that they don't go around kicking each other. There needs to be structure, but also room for fun.

 

Some mcdojo's may have a more playful atmosphere for kids. This is to keep their student's retention. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

I just don't believe in schools that train children like competitive athletes. I do believe kids who learn in a highly structured competitive environment have a higher probability of becoming successful martial artists when they grow up, but it is also true that the probability of them droping out is high.

 

I just believe teaching kids in a fun structured environment is the most you can give to them as an instructor. I feel it's my job as an instructor to innite interest in kids to learn martial arts. This opens the door for them to eventually mature in martial arts. Kids want to have fun, us adults want to learn.

[kenpo4life]

Korean,

 

I hear your points. But I think that MA should be enjoyable in and of intself. Most young children are put into MA because of the perceived benefits by the parents. I think that by no means should MA classes be the Marine Corps. But I think that line between enjoyable training and having just a good old time playing Martial Arts is gossammer thin

[Practice is the key _]

I'd agree with you I think putting kids in to some sort of boarding school MA am a asian and I'd not put in Ma school I learned them in my own high school then I went to the Renzoken club.