The Natural Laws Of Martial Art Self Defense...

[JerryLove]

I'm just going to ask you, Jerry...so you find it okay to hurst someone excessively even if they are doing little to you? So you believe a broken nose is a good exchange for a push? Death is a good exchange for a punch?

 

Your error is evident in the fact that you use the word "exchange". I don't "exchange", and I don't recommend anyone else does outside of a ring.

 

I don't hit someone because they pushed me, or because they hit me, or really for any reason of exhange. I initiate violence because I feel unsafe and desire to be safe. Who cares what level of force they exerted?

 

Would you kill a 2-year-old with a knife? Afterall, he came at you with a weapon. Should a woman being approached in a dark alley by a man saying "you're mine now" not shoot him? After all, all he's done is talk.

 

Your answers to those questions should remind you that it's not about how much force is being used; it's about what danger you are in and how you are going to get out of it.

I was in a self defense situation before. He attacked first (grabbed me in a headlock). I used just enough force so that the attacker was no longer a threat. I didn't kill him, or anything like that. If he had a weapon, however (I didn't see one anyways), I think I would have done a lot more damage.

 

Why? What if he hadn't used the weapon on you? Would your respose still have been higher? Why? Because you felt more endangered?

 

What if he had a weapon and you didn't know it? What if the reason he's only hugging you is so his friend behind you can stab you? Do you still think you should be putzing around with minimal responses? How will you know what the guy behind you is doing while you are "shoving back"?

I also helped a friend that was getting "threatened" by a drunk (he was bartending at the time). The drunk swung at him after he was told to leave. I grabbed his arm in a joint lock and threw him out.

 

An obviously incapable person behaved in an understood manner in a multiple-defender situation. You responsded, not because of the specific attack being "only a punch", but because you didn't feel a high danger level. This is the crux of what I'm trying to get across... it's not (shouldn't be?) about "fighting"... it's about protecting yourself; you should always take the safest acceptable course (usually leaving) and should respond based on percieved danger level, not on what has actually been done.

[Kai_Hwarang]

Well you can't really judge the danger level until you get a good idea on what may or may not be done. I'm not going to snap a guys neck just because I percieve he might be able to kill me.

 

That's like prejudjing someone and saying, "Well he/she looked like a killer, that's why I killed him/her"

 

It's the situation that really presents what level of danger there is. Yes, you can run and not see that danger, but at times when people persist and want to fight...and there is no running, it is usually very evident on what level they are about to inflict upon you.

 

Yes, they may have a concealed weapon, and yes, they may have something else that makes them more dangerous, however, that is only something you can react to, not try to prevent.

 

I'm sorry, but because I percieve that they might be more dangerous, doesn't mean I'm going to inflict more than I should to stop that "percieved" danger and find out later that I hurt or killed the person without just cause.

 

Yes, protecting yourself comes first, but also allowing yourself to be in control of your emotional state and state of mind is also a first. To overuse or abuse your abilities to hurt someone just because you can doesn't mean that you should...even in protecting yourself.

 

With every level of danger I feel there is an equal and balanced level of protection.

 

This also constitutes a certain amount of awareness. If you aren't aware of certain things, than you cannot judge the level of danger...and if you continuously use the same amount of force in every conflict, than you are blind to the true intentions and capabilities of many...which in turn can not only hurt them more, but also yourself.

 

-Kai

[shotochem]

It's the situation that really presents what level of danger there is. Yes, you can run and not see that danger, but at times when people persist and want to fight...and there is no running, it is usually very evident on what level they are about to inflict upon you.

 

Yes, they may have a concealed weapon, and yes, they may have something else that makes them more dangerous, however, that is only something you can react to, not try to prevent.

 

-Kai

 

I agree, which is why Jerry makes sense. You only get one opportunity if you do not neutralize the threat ASAP you could be seriously hurt or killed.

 

It is very easy to say only use what force is necessary. I may feel I need to use more force than you. Is the attacker much bigger ad stronger than me? Have I been traing as long or am I as good as you or Jerry? Do I think I could safely control the situation without doing too much harm?

 

Its a lot easier to harm someone than to subdue them.

 

I wouldn't take the chance, it could be the last mistake I would ever make.

 

Im not saying to cripple a drunken fool. Ive been attacked by one of thoseand subdued the idiot. But the violet drunk swinging a beer bottle at my head got treated a little differently. I didnt think twice about putting him down and I have no guilt what so ever. The police took him to the hospital and then his cell.

 

It all depends on who is being attacked and by whom and where as well as can you get away or are you cornered.

 

Just my personal opinion no offense intended....

[Kai_Hwarang]

Well, there are many instances where subduing is more difficult...and I wouldn't reccomend it either. I'm just stating that while one must take it upon themselves to be cautious towards another...they must also be cautious in their own actions.

 

-Kai

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Literally every situation will be different..period. There are really no "general rules" other than those you use and abide by yourself.

 

What I would do at 6'6" tall, 240lbs and 29 years of training and experience might be totally different than someone much smaller and less experienced.

 

Personally, I won't fight unless there is absolutly no other recourse. I put a man in the hospital once with a broken nose, broken cheekbone and 2 teeth knocked out because I lost my temper and control in a self defense situation years ago. He tried to press charges and threatened to sue me, but I had to many witness's that testified to the police and district attorney that I tried to walk away and had no choice to defend myself when he attacked.

 

I never got involved in the arts to hurt anyone, and I felt very bad about that incident afterwards. To the point I nearly quit the arts totally, but my sensei and another senior student talked me out of it. Even the policeman that answered the initial call talked to me at length about it, which I really appreciated.

[PrideampPoise]

it's about protecting yourself; you should always take the safest acceptable course (usually leaving) and should respond based on percieved danger level, not on what has actually been done.

Everybody has to make their own decisions, of course, but this is a perfectly reasonable approach, provided you aren't paranoid, and use some kind of reasonable judgement.

 

It doesn't mean that if you think somebody is going to punch you, you kill them. And unless Mr. Love is typing to us from prison, I don't think that's what he does.

 

But if somebody squares off against you and is getting into a fighting position, I don't think you have to wait for them to actually throw a blow before you can assume they will.

[JerryLove]

I am certainly not giving a "in this case, do that"; such advice would be silly and unsound. I'm giving a general approach.

 

You wouldn't "snap someone's neck because you think they might kill you", my response is "why the hell not?". No one is advocating that you kill everyone who gets in your face; please try not to prop up straw-man arguments.

That's like prejudjing someone and saying, "Well he/she looked like a killer, that's why I killed him/her"

 

Don't get near them to begin with. Leave, avoid that side of the street, make a scene and keep space. Self defense is about a great deal more than technique.

Yes, protecting yourself comes first, but also allowing yourself to be in control of your emotional state and state of mind is also a first. To overuse or abuse your abilities to hurt someone just because you can doesn't mean that you should...even in protecting yourself.

I've *never* said "just because you can"; I've consistantly said that you should do what you need to be safe.

This also constitutes a certain amount of awareness. If you aren't aware of certain things, than you cannot judge the level of danger...

 

Of course it does; the issue is over the assumptions made around that awareness. If you were aware enough, the conflict likely never started.

 

All situations are unique, and in all cases responses vary (last time I said "hang on, just a sec" and got in my car and drove away while he stood there confused). I assume they are armed weather I see it or not; I assume their friend is nearby; I assume their intention is to cause grevious bodily harm. If I know one of those assumptions is false, then I know it's false and adjust accordingly; but I'm not going to assume it's false.

 

I'll ask you a question, in reagrs to a group with a far higher standard for reciprocity of force than we civillians (who can flee) have. Why, when performing a felony arrest, do the police have their guns drawn even when no weapon is visable on the suspect?