Do Grading failers quit?

[47MartialMan]

 

 

What's wrong with that? Surely there is nothing wrong in hoping that all your students have the spirit and will to keep fighting on all the way to black belt? Let's be completely realistic here, the majority of the people have the black belt as their goal when they first start their MA. Is there anything wrong with vision?

 

No, but after they get that, many leave without the chance of "continued excellence". Per the words of Jinxx0r, If you're a true MA, it's inside you... the color of your belt shouldn't define you. If it's really a part of you, it's impossible to quit. If you do quit it was never really a part of your life. The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs.

 

As a 10th Kyu is it wrong to look forward to the day you get your shodan? I'd like to think that all my students are open minded enough that they realise the journey to black belt is more important to than the grading steps along the route. It is a great feeling when you grade as a kyu grade but you need to realise there is still so much to learn before you can really start your MA journey in earnest.

 

That is the point. After the coveted black Belt, many beleive that their "journey" had finished.

 

I'd like to think that everyone in my school strives for Black Belt excellence. It's better than thinking that some are there because their parents force them to be, or to fill in a bit of time, or because their boyfriend/girlfriend goes etc.

 

As I stated, they go for the rank first, and the other benefits are not as the primary concern. As far as parents forcing or peer pressure, that is worse than dangling the belt excellence.

 

I know that there are people there that go for those reasons and that only a small percentage will reach shodan but you have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and train them all in that way!

 

No, because if the rank was not there, wasn't written on the wall, wasn't a club, how many would actually be there or remain? There is no benefit of the doubt. Because many are not commited to it for a lifetime. They are commiited to a symbol.

 

Now, this is most important. As I write a reply to a quote in bold, it is not to emphasize shouting, just distinction.

 

Also, I am not challenging you as a person, in this case, I agreed with some of what Jinxx0r stated.

 

All is just IMHO

[AngelaG]

No, but after they get that, many leave without the chance of "continued excellence". Per the words of Jinxx0r, If you're a true MA, it's inside you... the color of your belt shouldn't define you. If it's really a part of you, it's impossible to quit. If you do quit it was never really a part of your life. The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs.

If they quit when they get their black belt that is up to them. In a few years their skills will dwindle and they will become mediocre Martial Artists. That's their choice, but at the time of their Shodan they were judged proficient enough in their skills to be given the hallowed symbol of achievement. I don't think people are defined so much by the colour of their kyu belts, all that shows is tenure more than anything, but a black belt (IMO) should have a different mindset, a drive, an understanding of their art and maturity and also be able to demonstrate the skills required of their grade. So to me the BB is important as it is a distinction between the two levels.

That is the point. After the coveted black Belt, many beleive that their "journey" had finished.

Again that is up to them. In that case they never understood the true meaning of the black belt. Is this a failing on their part or on the part of their instructor?

As I stated, they go for the rank first, and the other benefits are not as the primary concern. As far as parents forcing or peer pressure, that is worse than dangling the belt excellence.

I don't think it's important the reasons people start the MA, what's important is the reasons that they stay. Yeah staying for peer pressure or family pressure is bad, but as an instructor what are you going to do, refuse to teach them? It is the instructors job to make the MA interesting and enjoyable enough so that for the people being "forced" to go eventually it changes so that they want to go. You can tell the people that are hungry for promotion and the ones that stagnate in the middle kyu ranks. To a degree there is nothing wrong in belt chasing - at least they are showing interest. Yes maybe there should be bigger reasons for training but I guess we all have a long way before we achieve Perfection of Character

No, because if the rank was not there, wasn't written on the wall, wasn't a club, how many would actually be there or remain? There is no benefit of the doubt. Because many are not commited to it for a lifetime. They are commiited to a symbol.

 

If they choose to leave because there is no belt system that's up to them, but IMHO that's a poor reason for giving up something you enjoy. There will always be ways to sort the wheat from the chaff. Regardless of grades there will always be loads of people who fall by the wayside... and then there are those you strive to reach blackbelt excellence. And this is not a journey that ends once you get that belt around your waist. It is a continuing journey where everyday you are judged by the belt you are wearing and it is up to you to live up to those expectations. As a black belt the eyes of the entire dojo are on you and assessing you! A black belt is a symbol sure, but what's impoartant is what it symbolises. As I said before, attitude, maturity, understanding, skill, character etc. Any good dojo will not give out a black belt to someone that does not meet their set level of criteria.

 

 

Now, this is most important. As I write a reply to a quote in bold, it is not to emphasize shouting, just distinction.

 

Also, I am not challenging you as a person, in this case, I agreed with some of what Jinxx0r stated.

 

All is just IMHO

Hey we are all entitled to our opinions.

[Drunken Monkey]

"The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs."

 

.....it's all well and good saying this but then what do you suggest?

 

would taking away the belt system suddenly make everthing ok?

[Jinxx0r]

"The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs."

 

.....it's all well and good saying this but then what do you suggest?

 

would taking away the belt system suddenly make everthing ok?

 

no, but consistently teaching that the belt is not the end goal, but only a sybolic measure would be appropriate. I don't think a lot of people realize this. My instructor tells us this all the time. The way he has us think about it is like this: getting to cho dan is like going through high school. You learn a good set of basics (well, at least some of us ). You wouldn't finish high school and be qualified to be the CEO of microsoft. No, you continue your learning to the next level (like college), and then the level after that (graduate school), and so on.

 

So many people think that when you get to cho dan it's over, when really, you've got the basics... like finishing high school. All you've done is shown a proficiency in the core curriculum.

 

JMHO

[AngelaG]

"The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs."

 

.....it's all well and good saying this but then what do you suggest?

 

would taking away the belt system suddenly make everthing ok?

 

no, but consistently teaching that the belt is not the end goal, but only a sybolic measure would be appropriate. I don't think a lot of people realize this. My instructor tells us this all the time. The way he has us think about it is like this: getting to cho dan is like going through high school. You learn a good set of basics (well, at least some of us ). You wouldn't finish high school and be qualified to be the CEO of microsoft. No, you continue your learning to the next level (like college), and then the level after that (graduate school), and so on.

 

So many people think that when you get to cho dan it's over, when really, you've got the basics... like finishing high school. All you've done is shown a proficiency in the core curriculum.

 

JMHO

 

But that is not the fault of the belt system, nor does it mean that there is anything wrong in wanting to achieve BB excellence... it is a fault with the instructor. Maybe they should communicate with their students a bit more!

[Drunken Monkey]

i think the belt system has a lot to offer.

 

the problem has never been with the belts.

 

the problem is with what people see in them or do with them.

 

you could remove the belts but then so what?

 

people are still going to be learning things in a certain order and they will still judge each other by what they have learnt or how long they've been training.

 

there's always going to be

 

'i know more than you'

 

and

 

'i've been here longer than you'

[47MartialMan]

 

If they quit when they get their black belt that is up to them. In a few years their skills will dwindle and they will become mediocre Martial Artists. That's their choice, but at the time of their Shodan they were judged proficient enough in their skills to be given the hallowed symbol of achievement.

 

But is that achievement is mislead? You had stated that: "In a few years their skills will dwindle and they will become mediocre Martial Artists." So much for achievement. We are not talking the "3R's"

 

I don't think people are defined so much by the colour of their kyu belts, all that shows is tenure more than anything,

 

So why use the color rank system?

 

but a black belt (IMO) should have a different mindset, a drive, an understanding of their art and maturity and also be able to demonstrate the skills required of their grade.

 

But how can a someone under 12 years old accomplish this?

 

 

That is the point. After the coveted black Belt, many beleive that their "journey" had finished.

Again that is up to them. In that case they never understood the true meaning of the black belt. Is this a failing on their part or on the part of their instructor?

 

So how many students that you had that quit after black belt ? (And I do not mean immediately. What was the time span)- And, in the glory days, one had to learm more than forms and pay for each month, each rank, and join a club, much more than all of this to aquire that level.

 

I don't think it's important the reasons people start the MA, what's important is the reasons that they stay.

 

Not important? It may not be when one has to build a clientele.

 

Yeah staying for peer pressure or family pressure is bad, but as an instructor what are you going to do, refuse to teach them?

 

Good point, but that would not be profitable. Old glory days when a instructor could turn away a person out of knowledge of their character and not of how much they have in the wallet.

 

It is the instructors job to make the MA interesting and enjoyable enough so that for the people being "forced" to go eventually it changes so that they want to go.

 

But that is my point-if they are forced to go-then it is bad to begin with.

 

You can tell the people that are hungry for promotion and the ones that stagnate in the middle kyu ranks. To a degree there is nothing wrong in belt chasing - at least they are showing interest. Yes maybe there should be bigger reasons for training but I guess we all have a long way before we achieve Perfection of Character

 

Yes they are hungry and there are those that will use methods to feed that hunger. Showing interest? Do you think they would if the ranking system wasnt there? No-not perfect character, lifetime commitment. Or commitment beyond the rank to learn more, to improve more.

No, because if the rank was not there, wasn't written on the wall, wasn't a club, how many would actually be there or remain? There is no benefit of the doubt. Because many are not commited to it for a lifetime. They are commiited to a symbol.

If they choose to leave because there is no belt system that's up to them, but IMHO that's a poor reason for giving up something you enjoy.

 

Heck, many give it up after the belt anyway!

 

There will always be ways to sort the wheat from the chaff. Regardless of grades there will always be loads of people who fall by the wayside... and then there are those you strive to reach blackbelt excellence.

 

Yes, and once they got that, they do fall by the wayside.

 

And this is not a journey that ends once you get that belt around your waist.

 

For most yes, thats is what they wanted.

 

It is a continuing journey where everyday you are judged by the belt you are wearing and it is up to you to live up to those expectations.

 

But they do not. Once the belt is had, many quit. They only had one expectation-to get the belt.

 

As a black belt the eyes of the entire dojo are on you and assessing you!

 

Yes, because it became a materialized standard

 

A black belt is a symbol sure, but what's impoartant is what it symbolises.

 

Yes, money paid for lessons. For rank. Not actually true skill. Because the belt does not symbolize true skill.

 

As I said before, attitude, maturity, understanding, skill, character etc. Any good dojo will not give out a black belt to someone that does not meet their set level of criteria.

 

Attitude-pay the money, get the belt-I want it.

 

Maturity-how can a kid get that when they have not matured?

 

Understanding-No, all that is understood is that they are hungry for it. That they believe it is symbolic with fighting skill

 

Skill-doing katas, paying dues?

 

Character-They can do this without the belt.

 

Level of Cirteria-per how many months and money was spent?

 

Hey we are all entitled to our opinions.

 

But please, do not misconstrue. I do believe the rank has its place. Not on a commercial scale. By this a profit is ok to pay bills, but to award those ranks to kids and grandmothers seem ridiculous. How many kids would a school have if the rank wasn't offered to anyone under 17? Not many want to continue past the "coveted rank"

[47MartialMan]

"The Black Belt should not be the primary goal. Why display it as per words, clubs, etc.? It is a commercial tool to motivate students that come to want it from symbolic beliefs."

 

.....it's all well and good saying this but then what do you suggest?

 

would taking away the belt system suddenly make everthing ok?

 

Was it ok before it? Do you want to study for rank or continued knowledge and skill? It can't be taken away because "Profit Will Be Taken Away".

[47MartialMan]

 

no, but consistently teaching that the belt is not the end goal, but only a sybolic measure would be appropriate.

 

I agree, so why dangle it and put it on a "pedestal"

 

I don't think a lot of people realize this.

 

No, because people want it and are willing to pay for it.

 

My instructor tells us this all the time. The way he has us think about it is like this: getting to cho dan is like going through high school. You learn a good set of basics (well, at least some of us ). You wouldn't finish high school and be qualified to be the CEO of microsoft. No, you continue your learning to the next level (like college), and then the level after that (graduate school), and so on.

 

But, again, we are not talking about the "3R's". We are talking about the rank being misused to symbolize excellence. Excellence in what? And how, in relation to the "3R's, will the excellence continue after the rank, like high school, is achieved?

 

So many people think that when you get to cho dan it's over, when really, you've got the basics... like finishing high school. All you've done is shown a proficiency in the core curriculum.

 

Bingo. Shown proficeincy in a core curriculum-not actual skill. A curriculum that was advertised, inappropriately, as excellence, paid for.

 

But that is not the fault of the belt system, nor does it mean that there is anything wrong in wanting to achieve BB excellence

 

It is a false excellence. Perhaps a goal achievement?

 

... it is a fault with the instructor. Maybe they should communicate with their students a bit more!

 

Like tell them they are not going to get a black belt under a certain age or more time spent. What is the average time in your school-to achieve the rank?

 

quote]

[47MartialMan]

i think the belt system has a lot to offer.

 

Like what?

 

the problem has never been with the belts.

 

Sure it has. Because it became a commercial symbol falsely meaning excellence.

 

the problem is with what people see in them or do with them.

 

And the people who rank them because there are profits to be made.

 

Black Belt=Profits. No Black Belt=No Profits

 

you could remove the belts but then so what?

 

people are still going to be learning things in a certain order and they will still judge each other by what they have learnt or how long they've been training.

 

Yes, but perhaps, if the rank did not exist, many would learn for the knowledge and not the rank.

 

there's always going to be 'i know more than you' and 'i've been here longer than you'

 

And "I finished". And "It is Finally Paid For" and "I have it and I have excellence!"