Tibby Posted November 9, 2003 Posted November 9, 2003 everything has a conter. Of course that what someone could do, and some people would do that. Just because something can be countered or reversed doesn't make the move any less effective. Some moves can be countered in more ways, and the counters are easier. That makes them less effective. I think trying locks standing gives the person more ways out. Granted. So, what makes you say standing locks are less effective? How about a throw? Even more dangerous, good chance YOU will be the one on your back, A punch pr kick? Ah, this is were the other guy proves you wrong and puts you in a joint lock. Everything has a counter, more then one in most if not all cases. And we can't smash them into a car because...? So you admit my point. I was saying that a car would be a substitute for the ground. You agree that you'd rather do a lock against a car than freestanding, then why wouldn't you rather do a lock against the ground than freestanding? Um... yeah, but the only problem with that is you are both still STANDING, so even bracing them against a wall or a car of something like that is still STANDING. Normally, to define something as ground fighting it has to be ON THE GROUND, not braced against something. If someone ISN'T resisting they will pin them and slap the cuff on them. That is what they do, smart guy. But there are times when they can't get to there handcuffs. What if they are to busy with both hands protecting themselfs from a IV-using brute on PCP? That still doesn't answer why Armed Forces, Self-Defense Experts, Prison guards, and body guards use standing joint locks. This makes too little sense for me to agree with or refute. What makes you an expert on the tactics used by all these professions anyway? Oh, just a few posts ago, you where they one telling ME what these guys do, now you are implying I think I know what they do? What makes you an expert? I've training with Prison Guards and Body Guards, my father was in JSOC for many years, and I watch Cops it doesn't take an expert to know what they do, anyways it just take a TV and a good news channel. Good post, Hohan-1. Most of the GJJ I've seen it a lot of ground work. But, I guess like most martial arts, they sell it with the sport aspect. I wasn't going to play the style card with him, but you did so tactfully.
Reklats Posted November 9, 2003 Posted November 9, 2003 So many people are into a system and just take people's words for things. Matsumura seems like an art that is heavily "simulated." I know you've never practiced "throwing someone by their neck onto the side of their skull, while striking them the entire time from many angles." You'd go through too many training partners. The sport aspect of BJJ is what makes it so great. If you think standing wristlocks will work, you can show up and TRY THEM on a bunch of people who are fully resisting. You won't get much success. Tibby- Read my reply, try to comprehend for a few seconds what it means, and then base your reply accordingly. I'm not going to start repeating myself.How about a throw? I like throws. Never argued against throws.anyways it just take a TV Yeah, that's what I thought.
Tibby Posted November 9, 2003 Posted November 9, 2003 So many people are into a system and just take people's words for things. Matsumura seems like an art that is heavily "simulated." I know you've never practiced "throwing someone by their neck onto the side of their skull, while striking them the entire time from many angles." You'd go through too many training partners. The sport aspect of BJJ is what makes it so great. If you think standing wristlocks will work, you can show up and TRY THEM on a bunch of people who are fully resisting. You won't get much success. Tibby- Read my reply, try to comprehend for a few seconds what it means, and then base your reply accordingly. I'm not going to start repeating myself.How about a throw? I like throws. Never argued against throws. It was an example of the fact that everything has a counter. anyways it just take a TV Yeah, that's what I thought. Wow, aren’t you an intelligent one! You can take my words out of context and use them against me. Good job. I said it only takes a TV, I never said I only use a TV. I believe you said it best when you saidRead my reply, try to comprehend for a few seconds what it means, and then base your reply accordingly. Hey, look I quoted you and didn’t even take it out of context! Take note.
JohnnyS Posted November 9, 2003 Posted November 9, 2003 I'll add my 2 cents. I worked as a bouncer for seven years and used to find that the hammerlock and chicken wing would work standing, but generally found that a choke was much easier to apply. I could never apply a wristlock that would submit a drunk person due to people being too sweaty, resisting too much or being too drunk to feel the pain. The reason I found that hammerlocks worked was that because it was more of a controlling technique (controlling their posture), rather than a joint-lock. I found that pain compliance techniques were generally ineffective, especially since drunk or high people either just don't feel the pain or are too pissed off with you to care. I definately don't think that standing locks are as easy to apply as locks on the ground. Why? Because on the ground you've taken away one more plain i.e. the person can move in more directions standing that on the ground. Also, on the ground you can use more pressure to control your opponent and isolate the limb - this is much, much harder to do standing. BJJ - Black Belt under John Will (Machado)Shootfighting - 3rd Degree Black BeltTKD - Black Belt
Treebranch Posted November 11, 2003 Posted November 11, 2003 TJS you have hit the nail on the head on the head. Locks are definitely harder to do standing, I agree completely. Pain compliance should never be the goal of any lock, because you can't depend on that. You are attacking the structure by using the limb as a lever that is connected to the spine which in turn takes their balance. If you can take their balance it is much easier to control them and or throw them. Also strikes create openings for locks and throws to be applied and hopefully your strikes are good enough to do the job. If you disagree with this I'm done here. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Bdaze Posted November 11, 2003 Posted November 11, 2003 the way I see it, the NFC is great, but it's not to be taken to literally. some things i would see in the UFC i would NEVER use in a real fight. there is no better style, only better training. i have seen a 70 year old man use a Take Ori (thats what it's calld in my style, but it equates to a standing wrist break) on a physically fit 20 year old who was very well trained in parker kenpo and combative grappeling. and i honestly believe he wanted to kill this man. the reason the 70 year old won was because he has trained in aikido for 10 year. there is no ultimate unbeatable style. this man just trained harder and was able to counter more effectivley. things work in diferant situations, there is no set counter for any one move. thats why i don't trust these "Combative" martial arts that teach you "quick and effective ways of nutralizing any atack". it's really the training rather than the techniques that make you a good martial artist. If in your journey you encounter God, God will be cut ~Hatori Hanso (sonny chiba)
Reklats Posted November 11, 2003 Posted November 11, 2003 it's really the training rather than the techniques that make you a good martial artist. You're going to have a different cost/benefit ratio with different techniques though. I did taekwondo for a year. Eventually I got fed up with the * techniques wasting my training time and quit. I started doing jiu jitsu, and I felt like I improved as a fighter in the next month more than I did in the last year at TKD.
Treebranch Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 Reklats is that traditional or BJJ? Both are great in their own way. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Treebranch Posted November 12, 2003 Posted November 12, 2003 Well in that case Budo Taijutsu. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
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