Reklats Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 We do some strikes on our feet, but we focus on clinching. I know some judo throws (ones I consider effective in a gi/no gi situation). Stand up grappling like akido and hapkido (those are the only ones I've been exposed to) seem relatively ineffective compared to just taking down and working from there. A clinch/ground game makes up the vast majority of a fight, so wouldn't it make sense to train that the most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Reklats believes: We do some strikes on our feet, but we focus on clinching. I know some judo throws (ones I consider effective in a gi/no gi situation). Stand up grappling like akido and hapkido (those are the only ones I've been exposed to) seem relatively ineffective compared to just taking down and working from there. Well maybe you just prefer that to the other. It may seem ineffective to you compared to the other, but can it be you just did not learn it correctly? Or you just weren't that good at it? Or you just don't have the patience to learn it? You can't just think that every fight is going to be the same and end up on the ground, that's not very realistic. There's way too many factors to account for in a real situation and you are risking way too much by automatically going to the ground. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reklats Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 You can't just think that every fight is going to be the same and end up on the ground, that's not very realistic. Absolutely. However, its more likely that a fight will end up on the ground than it will remain standing. Because of this fact I choose to do the majority of my training where the majority of fights happen, in the clinch/ground range. How many fights do you see that happen at karate sparring range? As for standing joint locks like wrist locks...I think they're a low percentage shot. It might work, or you might get elbowed/punched in the face. A good 'ol takedown or throw/sweep is more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJS Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 You can't just think that every fight is going to be the same and end up on the ground, that's not very realistic. Absolutely. However, its more likely that a fight will end up on the ground than it will remain standing. Because of this fact I choose to do the majority of my training where the majority of fights happen, in the clinch/ground range. How many fights do you see that happen at karate sparring range? As for standing joint locks like wrist locks...I think they're a low percentage shot. It might work, or you might get elbowed/punched in the face. A good 'ol takedown or throw/sweep is more reliable. If you have ever seen a street fight it's obvious why so many end up on the ground, people throw wild, off balance haymakers and crash into each other. your right about the distance part though, alot of standup styles sped all or the large majority of their time in punching kicking range and they dont know what to do when someone smothers them. Knees, elbows, headbutts, etc whould all be a part of your game if your training for realism...you can train for the that without having to go to the ground..close range combatives can be very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 See the problem is that the same way you use your body on the ground can be done from a standing position. Many of the lock and hold done in GJJ can be done standing as well, the key is their balance. Also, you can move to places where they can't punch you effectively. You're going to get hit whether it's standing or on the ground. I think you just feel more comfortable there and that's cool. I just think that now that you are developing a strong base of ground fighting work on your stand-up skills and learn how to take someone down without sacrificing yourself. Like I said when I have the time and money I'm going to take up some ground fighting. We do quite a bit of it in class, but there is so much more to MA's than just being able to destroy someone. I also think GJJ has a lot of room to grow into a complete MA and maybe someone besides the Gracies will take to the next level where is no need to cross train with it. I think learning how to fight with weapons is very important especially when there is more than one person. There are ways of fighting with objects that will aid you in controlling someone. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 TJS you are right, but there is a way to deal with wild punch. Wild punches come from around or down the middle. So distancing can aid here, but more importantly moving offline then closing the distance strike-take balance with strike-clinch-takedown in one flowing movement. Elbow, fists, head, forearms, open hand, shoulders, knees, hips, and whatever else you can strike with all come into play to make the takedown easier for you. The important point I'm trying to make is, if you can take a person down you don't necessarily need to go down with them. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJS Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Many of the lock and hold done in GJJ can be done standing as well, the key is their balance. Also, you can move to places where they can't punch you effectively. You're going to get hit whether it's standing or on the ground. Have yet to see a single standing joint manipulation or choke be used effectivly(except a guillotine) in any NHB competiton. no wether you think they are realistic or not shouldent affect that there have never been rules against them and you see them all the time on the ground. I belive most people agrre it's alot harder to make them work form a standing position, im not saying it's impossible just unlikely.TJS you are right, but there is a way to deal with wild punch denifetly, I was just saying that alot of fight's between tow untrained people go to the ground because theyt hrow such wil punches.The important point I'm trying to make is, if you can take a person down you don't necessarily need to go down with them I agree thats basically what i was saying, you can strike form a clinch or throw them from a clinch without going down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 TJS, you don't even really have to get the lock on perfectly and many times people can tolerate the pain. The real key to making any throw or lock work is taking the other persons balance and taking advantage of it. Also, I have to say I've seen at least 30 NHB fights on video and at times you can see these guys hold back sometimes. They often are being very sportsman like. I think if these guys wanted to kill eachother and really break bones these fights would look a lot different. Don't you think? "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reklats Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 First of all a disclaimer- please forgive my japanese spellings and attempts at naming judo moves. About the need to follow people down: The other day we were sparring starting on our feet but without strikes. Usually this involves a lot of single/double leg takedowns, with some weird stuff like firemans carrys sneaking in. So, I clinched with my partner, and I felt like doing something crazy that a judo guy had shown me a while back. I did my imitation of a throw that I cant begin to spell. Something see-o-nage.... (word here?) Seonage.... somethign like that... anyway I chucked him over my shoulder. He landed on his back, completely stunned. The worst thing he would've thought to see from me before this would've be a hip toss. Anyway, my point: if we'd been on anything harder than a mat, I probably wouldn't have needed to follow him down. However, I don't know if I'd feel comfy getting as judo-lubby-dubby with someone in a real fight. If he had dropped his weight, taken my back and slipped on a rear naked choke it would've been all over. I wouldn't want that to happen in a real situation. I'd rather risk the guilitine going in for the double leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Hey Reklats do me a favor. Next time you're in a standing position and you have a good distance from your opponent and he tries to shoot in on your legs, step back on a 45 degree angle. See what happens, look how open he'll be. Also when you are in clinch with someone give them a little smack and watch the way his body reacts. If his back bends backwards step into that space you created and throw him. If his back bends forward kick the supporting leg closest to you and throw him forward. Do you guys cover balance points or triangulation? I think you would find a lot of good stuff in Budo Taijutsu that might surprise you. The principals of how to move and how to take someones balance are more important than the techniques, but they kind of go hand in hand. Also never stop moving when applying a technique, flow with it. Any pause is enough for someone to be able to counter it. If you have good flow, most of the time they won't even know what happened. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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