american kenpo vs. kyokushin

[aznkarateboi]

what are the similarities and differences? i know that american kenpo is more scientific and kyokushin is more hardcore

[delta1]

Geez, az, I'm not votin' on that! Which is best for you? AK works for me, but not for everybody.

 

As for hardcore, you'll have to tell me what you mean. AK has a rep for being brutal and destructive, and it is definately a hard contact art (disclaimer: you can add water to anything, but all you have then is a mess that looks like it might have been a ma once). If you mean hardcore traditional, Kyokushin probably is the pick.

[aznkarateboi]

could you tell some things about american kenpo? by hardcore i meant the training methods are very physically demanding.

[ShirKhan]

I love Kenpo but I have nothing but respect for Kyokushinkai and Mas Oyama to me was one of the greatest martial arts role models of the 20th century. I love Kenpo because it is always flexible and evolving with influences from many traditions, and Kyokushinkai for it's fearsome tradition of hard training passed down from it's founder.

 

If I were to critique Kenpo, I would be critical of the standard of training and competence that seems to vary from school to school. If I were to critique Kyokushinkai, I would be critical of very little, except if I trained in Kyokushinkai I would miss the freedom and innovation of Kenpo.

 

If there were a contest between a dozen random Kenpo black belts against a dozen Kyokushinkai black belts, I think it would be an interesting contest, with the edge given to the Kyokushinkai group because of my aforementioned varying standard of excellence in the various Kenpo schools. More interesting would be contests between people who represent the best each art has to offer. I think it would be a learning experience for both parties.

[delta1]

could you tell some things about american kenpo? by hardcore i meant the training methods are very physically demanding.

 

Sure. AK is noted for its flow and its practical self defense methods. It has no wasted motion and has a reputation for being very fast but powerful.

 

AK is a technique based training system, and each technique is like a mini kata. Superficially, the techniques teach you to defend against almost any concievable attack. But they are actually a vehicle to teach you to move, and to teach the principles and concepts of fighting. The techniques start off fairly simple, then get more detailed as your skills and your understanding increase (detailed doesn't mean fancy, just more technical, more principles and concepts are stressed). Our early forms are more like drills, then they progress to technique forms where techniques are done on the opposite side, you borrow and flow from one technique to another. We learn to set up a reaction in our opponent and to work off that reaction. Timeing, angular relationships, spatial and dimensional control are important. Understanding is stressed along ith the physical skills.

 

AK has a complete arsenal of strikes, and teaches fighting at all ranges. Done correctly, it is a very physical art also. You start learning a technique easy, getting moves and positioning down with a compliant partner. Then he works up the force of the attack a little at a time untill it simulates street force. Then you start working on the modifications, the 'what ifs' (when things go wrong).

 

There is some debate in AK about whether techniques were meant to be done exactly as written in a fight. I'm of the school of thought that says they were not. I know they can, and I know from first hand accounts that they have in seriouse fights. But They don't allways, and no matter how many techniques you have they could never cover every concievable situation. But the system does teach a full encyclopedia of motion in such a way that it is internalized and reaction and movement become instinctive.

 

I'll give a quick example of how it works. The Shotokan guy I was working with on 'slaps' and heel palm strikes was twice my size and a grappler as well. One of the things I wanted to show him was a defense against a rear bear hug, arms pinned. To do the technique that used a couple of effective heel palms his attack had to be such that I could move in width (a little to the side) but not in depth or heighth. While I was trying to explain that, he attacked- hard! His attack was a little different than any I've worked with in that he immediately started to sling me to my left. His left foot steped back to @ 7:00 and he was transfering his weight to that foot, getting his body into the attack. I immediately steped back into a right forward bow, my left foot between his feet, thus stabilizing my base. This was a move found in another rear bear hug technique, but it was meant to buckle his right knee outward and open his groin for a rear heel palm and claw. Unfortunately, due to the variation of the attack, my leg was positioned so that it blocked his groin. So as I steped back and settled into my stance I delivered the heel palm to the junction of his pelvic girdle and his left leg- which is a variation that I had worked on some time ago and had forgotten about. He buckled drammatically and created more than enough space for me to work. I rotated my left shoulder into him as I pivoted into a left neutral bow (a variation from another technique) and drove him back. He had a shocked look on his face as I finished with a left side elbow to the mandible and simultaneous right heel palm to the sternum, both pulled of course. So, did I think of all this while I worked? Not even! I didn't have time. But at each step of the defense I was in familiar territory, even though not exactly the same, and the moves just came.

[delta1]

If I were to critique Kenpo, I would be critical of the standard of training and competence that seems to vary from school to school. If I were to critique Kyokushinkai, I would be critical of very little, except if I trained in Kyokushinkai I would miss the freedom and innovation of Kenpo.

 

I agree with you there. But don't feel too bad- I've heard people from a lot of different styles make the same complaints about varying standards. I do have to hand it to the Japanese arts guys, though. By and large they seem to be a very well drilled bunch. With so much variety and so many interesting ways to train, we are sometimes tempted to neglect our basics.