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And today Muhammed Ali is in a wheel chair and can barely speak. Allowing someone to tire by beating their fist against your head - well... I have to question how "strategically smart" that is. Perhaps I'm just a little more timid. No disrespect to the champ.

This a very long thread - to long for me to read through. I haven't read most and I haven't even read all of nine_weapons posts in this thread, but I did like some some things he stated in one or two posts. To be honest, I don't think all fighting styles are equal. I think some are pound for pound more "equal" than others. If one ever reads some of Clausewitz views, a military philosopher of war that has greatly shaped the "Western way of War," then it probably would not come as any surprise if I suggested warfare in it most primitive and early state can be construed as two persons engaged in hand to hand combat (or what we might call a street fight). Personally, I have no inclination or desire to stand in the open and shoot at my enemy while my enemy fires back at me as was common in U.S. Civil War battles. The game of combat has evolved. Has it evolved at the individual primitive level? Well... let me just say I have zero use for mimicking animal stances - or esoteric stuff like in Japanese ninjitsu where supposedly holding your right hand over your heart will calm your heart while some one punches at you. People today do not scare so easy by tales of Zeus, goblins, or people contorting themselves in various animal stances. What's effective? If it keeps you alive in a small prison cell against an excessively violent, muscular, member of the Aryan Brotherhood, or preserves your doom from being split open by 3 welterweights in a Chicago ally then it works, whatever it is. That might be a Chinese martial art? But whatever it is I doubt it's going to be to esoteric.

I don't know if I would agree with this assessment. I think that many people see Boxing this way, because many perceive it as two guys that are just slugging at each other. However, there is a lot more strategy involved than just that. I think that the misconception comes from the restricted rules and techniques involved in Boxing. Which essentially means: two guys that are just slugging at each other. No, on a serious note, You really think so? Perhaps you are correct. I have novice experience in boxing so I certainly don't know everything. Although, I've got enough experience in it to figure out there are no where near as many moves in boxing as there are in grappling arts like BJJ. And BJJ requires such subtle nuances, it really is a chess game in a real sense, kind of like "playing" capoeria. Boxing - I love it - I have learned more about myself and life from my short time in boxing than I have from all my years of religious indoctrination. But, for all the skill and refinement required in stellar boxing, it essentially is a very blunt sport, that has a lot less techniques than Karate or BJJ. Boxing is the furthest thing from brain surgery in my opinion even though it carries the vaunted handle of "the sweet science." Pro fighters (unknown ones in the "poor mans sport") missing their teeth and punch drunk with slurred speech... I don't know [shrug] seems pretty basic to me.

The only problem that I have with this concept is that females are more likely to be attacked by bigger, stronger males. By holding back too much with them in training, you do them a disservice. I am not saying that they should be mauled, either. However, they need to experience what it is like to deal with greater strength and speed at times. I second that. All the time I've trained in MAs I have sparred adult men, even when I was a lot younger. Being able to hold my own against a 6ft 200lb man has done wonders for my training, not just with regards to self defense. For a start I have to be cleverer about how I spar as speed and strength won't help me. I also have a lot more confidence on the street already knowing what it feels like to fight a grown man and how to cope with it compared to someone my size. I understand what you both are saying. I was thinking more a long the lines that a male novice fighter should never spar with a female that is better than him because it can damage his ego. There are cocky males that need to have their egos taken down a few notches. However, there are less confident males in their physical abilities (which culturally automatically crosses over into "masculine" concepts), and for a novice like this to be pummeled by a female (or even another male) can be "to much" to soon, and the emotional or psychological toll, especially if it is done before others, can make that novice sink even more inward. He may become what they call "glove shy." He may even stop training. I can spar a woman even if she is better than me primarily because my ego is secure enough for something like that even if I got pummeled. But I would not put my shy 10 year old nephew who has never spared, against a young female whom I knew was a much better fighter than him. I'm trying to build his confidence to believe he can stand a fighting chance against much more aggressive or larger boys than him. If I allow him to get publicly beaten by a girl he would be crushed. And by rule of thumb, it takes much longer to heal from an emotional wound than it does a physical wound. Most men - many "couch potatoes" - no matter how physically weak they are, will repeat the standard rhetoric that a man should not hit a woman. Ok, by rule of thumb this true, but whether most men want to acknowledge it or not, you do have some teenage girls or adult women who can "clean your clock." I don't think 99% of women can beat me. But this is partly due to me being pretty aggressive and in decent physical strength myself. So for me, females should spar females, at least at the novice level.

Yeah, you're right. I just think the Mongolians often get over looked because they're cultural history has not gained the level of romanticism as the Western knights or Eastern samurai. I'm not sure why that is? Perhaps because Gothic culture produced distinctive architecture, paintings, songs and poetry? Perhaps the same with the Japanese culture from gardens to calligraphy? Anyways, I'm no authority on knights or samurai but I would tend to go with the samurai winning. Perhaps that's my opinion shaped by stereotypes on the samurai or lack of knowledge on the knights own ability, but the samurai seem to have gained even the respect of the Jesuits (who thought a handful of Japanese samurai could take out a larger number of Chinese) for their stellar combat skills.

Personally I think the Mongolian on his small ratty horse, with recurved bow, would, generally speaking, win against both knight and samurai. In the case of the knights in Hungary, I can't remember if they were Teutonic or Templars, they were I believe wiped out by the invading Mongols. Mongols also were skilled wrestlers (I think all the various Mongolian tribes were). The Mongols had way of fighting (speed of mobility, hit, run, hit again) which placed emphasis on the best personal missile fired system of its day (the recurved bow or also know as the composite bow). Today that personal missile fired system (or projectile) is the assault rifle. While the Northern European knight would eventually distinguish himself as the greatest heavy calvary fighter known to history (not light calvary) once the knights adopted the stirup from the East, the Byzantine warriors of Constantinople actually had one of the most superb professional fighting force on earth. These fighters adopted aspects of the western heavy calvary with the recurved bow of the eastern Mongolians. The Mongolians do not spur the same sense of romance in us as the tales and images of the knights and samurais. Kind of like the Escrimador does not spur the same sense of romance in us in Western culture as the "Karate Kid" (the movie and persona). But if I had to get into a prison knife fight I'd take the Escrimador on my side before the Karate Kid in his "mystical stance."

I spent about a year in the Genbukan branch of Ninpo (basically "Ninjitsu") when I was a senior in high school. I ended up going into the military so that was that. Ninjitsu is very Chinese in its fluent mannerisms. In my opinion it is a good art. However, it has some draw backs. The way they punch in Ninjitsu being one of biggest flaws. The Ichi Munji (forgive my spelling because I know I butchered it) stance, though over a thousand years old I believe, is probably better than the archaic stance western boxers of the John L. Sullivan days stood in. Nonetheless, punching like that today, even standing like that today will not work even against the most feeble "street fighter." But that's what you get when you place tradition over practicality or adapting to evolved or improved modern "game." The grappling in Ninpo falls under the Tai Jitsu training. I personally think one can make its style of body mechanics work in a real fight to the death. Ninpo has a form of low crawl that is superior to what modern militaries use. The problem is it burns to much calories (energy) and would require person train doing it for probably a year or more. The sword training is good, the way they fight with knives I don't care for, the way Ninpo fights with the short stick is decent (not great not bad) but falls short of the practicality and effectiveness of Escrima. There is a lot of "politics" running around in Ninpo right now. I'm not entirely pleased with everything going on in the Genbukan. But I will say this, the Genbukan offers classes in Jujutsu too, and their school of Jujutsu is decent - worthwhile. The Bujukan has some questionable politics going on too in my opinion. I don't know much of anything about the other major branch of Ninpo. Ninpo currently markets itself toward a target population star dazzled, by the shadowy image of the infamous "Ninja" and the allure of "secrets." I feel confident in saying that if you train in Ninpo for a year... say about 2 times a week for about 2 or 3 hours each of those two days... you will not improve one lick as a fighter. Two or three years? Yeah, I would think you would improve. I bring this up because it depends on what goals you are looking for in any particular time frame. If you want to find immediate improvement in a years time, as a fighter, I would not suggest going the route of Aikido or Ninpo. I would suggest you take up either boxing, Thai boxing, or submission wrestling. You can train about 3 to 4 times a week in boxing and improve your fight game against the most aggressive street attacker in years flat time. But boxing is very limited. I've entered training under the JKD system. Actually JKD is more a philosophy. I find it very excellent and very balanced (primarily because of the arts taught art my school and my Sifu - as well as fellow students).

I just read danbong's response and I agree. Not to say you should be aiming for her chest - the point of sparring isn't to beat your opponent to a pulp or severely injure them. But sparring requires contact and nothing is perfect. You receive pain or discomfort. In general, I don't think males and females should be sparring anyways. I don't think any novice male should ever spar against a female that is better them him, most especially.

Sounds good to me. Grappling is an awesome art. If on a scale from 0 to 20 complexity equaled 20, I would have to say western boxing is about a 4 or 5 and Brazilian Jujitsu and some other grappling arts are a 20.

Andy, First of all, I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Your daily 5 mile walks alone are good enough exercise to keep you healthy (aside from diet and etc.). Not only that but you walk 3 miles each way to and from your kick boxing classes. I suspect then you are in decent shape assuming your diet and lifestyles are ok (and such frequent walking is a "lifestyle" too). What you are not in is athletic shape, but few people are including most people in the military. Even some athletes aren't even in athletic shape (such as some of the overweight boxers you see sometimes). No one needs to be in athletic shape unless they either wish to or need to for competitive reasons. There are plenty of lean older men and women on the island of Sardinia who carry buckets of water up and down hills daily (no running water) and walk just about every where they go. Life expectancy on that island surpasses the U.S. average. To first experience soreness on the 2nd or 3rd day after a workout, and not the 1st day after a workout, is normal. In fact that is usually when it happens. Generally the 2nd day is bad and the 3rd day can often be even worse. It's important to do some light exercising when during this period. Once your body gets use to whatever level of workout you're typically doing, you'll cease to experience all this soreness. I'm not sure why your knees and hips are clicking. Hopefully you don't have arthritis (sp?). Kickboxing and boxing can have some intense workouts - not always though. It can greatly depend on the gym/school you go to and or the trainers you have. Kicking itself requires many more calories (energy) than punching, so a good kickboxing school will only up the intensity of your workouts as you improve. In general I would same similar goes with boxing. If you switch to western boxing - again it will depend on the gym you go to - the workouts may be fairly hard. The first gym I went to my coach tailored each program to each individual, and usually he would increase the reps each week. He operated under the school of thought that you kept going up in reps in things such as push-ups and sit-ups until you could do a thousand or more of them each day. So if you were doing 100 push-ups but could only do 50 non-stop, you rested for a bit and then kept going until you eventually completed the other 50. Inclined treadmill, speed riding the stationary bike in 3 different positions, weight lifting and jump roping along with the push-ups, sit-ups, jumping jacks (again reps from 50 to over a hundred or in the several hundreds) some other exercises and bag work and shadow boxing was done 5 days a week every time you came to the gym. Saturdays we did whatever we wanted in the gym. The gym I go to now has a much more simple and far more easy basic workout. Although, they can turn up the notches there too if they want. I've had very easy workouts there and very, very, extremely, hard workouts there. Doing several series of sprints and then jumping into a 5 mile run and all sorts of crazy stuff. If your kickboxing program is Thai boxing or made up some elements of Thai boxing then I would suggest you stick with that rather than going to western boxing. Thai fighters train hard and they also - in my opinion - are much more deadly than western boxers. Either way you'll get in good shape doing kickboxing. P.S. It'll be hard to get in athletic shape only going once or even twice a week to the gym. You need to go at least 5 days a week and preferably 6 days a week. I haven't trained 4 or 5 days a week at the boxing gym in over a year. I may go once or twice a week (I haven't in over a month now though). Serious boxing coaches don't like this but oh well.

Your feet seemed to be spread kind of far a apart and maybe even planted (I'm going by what your legs seemed to give the impression of). You're a much bigger guy than I am though and so perhaps for bigger men a wider stance is more appropriate. Me, I like to be up on my toes and feet close enough together where I gave not only bounce but move *rapidly* in whatever direction I want to go. I'm fast enough I can move straight backward from an attack. I like to move, and it is one of the things I count on. As an example, since you're bigger (I'm assuming heavyweight), and since you hold both your guards in front of your face, I would ever so often leap in with a left hook to the side of your jaw/head where your left guard is absent, I would then just as quickly break contact.

How that cat hits that double-end bag like that I have no idea?

I agree with this. I think many people - and understandably so - do not realize that endurance plays a significant roll in boxing. I'm not just speaking of cardio endurance but endurance to both physical pain and an element of non-pain that some how seems to tap your "wind" and energy for some reason: being punched hard (especially if it's repeatedly). When a person begins to get exhausted and begins *gasping for air,* when he or she is at the same time *pressured* by one or more violent opponents in what seems like a life or death situation, that person *easily* begins to lose their "cool." Fear at this point shoots into a person like never before. At such a point you best regain your disposition, at such a point you best have solid *basics.* When you have taken some solid blows that sap your energy in seconds like a super-leech, and no amount of sucking seems to give you the oxygen you need *just to simply defend yourself,* your natural instincts are to *flee.* Boxers do the insane thing of actually staying in the ring. It has been time tested and time proven that at such instances attempting to try out "new and innovative things" will be detrimental to your health and success. You do what works. And stand your ground like a Spartan. Even if that means running backward, from side to side, simply disengaging or even clutching. But you do what works.

Kingebret, Looking at what overwieght people have to go through in life (verbal and social abuse) I've been very blessed that I have never been overweight in my life. Although, I've been the reverse, the small male who could never gain much weight - skinny and short. I'm older now and my body and height are more proportionate to a the ideals of a "males" against a females. I'm still not very large in weight but my height, although considered short by U.S. male averages, is good enough to make me a little taller or at least ast tall as most adult women. When I entered freshmen year of high school I weighed under 90 lbs. Believe it or not, the human body can be shaped. My physique in general today, would be considsered pretty good. Up against most men of my same age range it would be considered above average. However, there are men my age and much older that have better physical builds than me, primarily due to both the amount of effort they put in and as well the level of intelligence they have in shaping a good work out program for themselves. Each person has some physical limitations. Why could Bruce Lee kick and punch so hard relation to his small physical stature? I'll probably never know and it may be years before science can ever definitively answer that. Nonetheless, we all can *improve,* given enough time and *money.* I say money because to dramatically reshape the body it can sometimes require a lot of money through changed diets and even probably by retaining a trainer. For me, for my goals, I will not need major money nor even lots of fancy equipment. But that is just me. For someone else it might be different. I know what you mean about the feeling of embarrasment (sp?) too. I have certain strengths in boxing and certain weaknesses. I'm not very good at working combinations. So, working the mitts with a trainer can be a time of some fear - and the coaches are not so "gentle" about your mistakes. I really have the element of fear and shame when it comes to some of the training at my martial arts school. From the Thai boxing, to the stick work, to the capoeira. Some of this is very new body mechanics for me. And OH MY GOD don't talk about the capoeira. You have never seen such a pathetic, stiff, creature attempt such moves. But I have made some small improvements in all of these arts. Of course, I may reach a certain talent or physical limit in any of them - especially the capoeira. So, I don't know... I guess we just try and try and try. I don't know what else we can do? [shrug] If you're no longer happy with training you may need to stop for your own sanity and health though. My first boxing coach and gym I had to leave. We had problem on a couple of levels. First, he would hollar at you like you were a child, secondly, he seemed to develop an attitude because I would not declare boxing as my primary pursuit in life: meaning dreams of going pro and seeking money and fame. And I was only training at this place for a few months.

Kingebret, I liked what ninjanurse has to say about dedication and perseverance. I also like what her and another member said about the "journey" to and after black belt. Kingebret, I think you are right that children, in general, do not have the life experience to really appreciate the merits in such abstract thoughts as "journey" over "failure." I feel real bad for your daughter not passing her test. She should feel very proud and good about herself though. She is 13 and has taken a lesser chosen road - most humans male or female will never put in years of training in the martial arts. I consider myself still a novice in every level of training (well... because I am ) so I'm crossed on how to view this whole testing by panel thing your daughter has to go through. Part of my novice experience is in boxing, and it has had a significant shaping on certain aspects of how I think. In the boxing world coaches are very tuned into their novice pugilist psychological strengths and weaknesses and are very protective of their novice fighters egos. What bothers me about this system of judges by panels is not its structure in and of itself - I mean it would be one thing if it was a tournament - but it bothers me that effectively the kids fill they do not "graduate" with the rest of their "class." This can result in a kids feeling like they're lower on the food chain, not "good enough" *like the others in their class.* It seems to me it would be easier for a kid to recover from going into a sparring tournament and getting popped good numerous times. Even if this Olympic judging and a kid lost, in my mind that would be easier than the feeling that comes with "not graduating with the others." Personally, coming from my novice boxing experience, I would not put a fighter of mine through anything I felt they were not ready for and would be psychologically crushed by from end results. Maybe I'm wrong on some of this and maybe these kind of panels can actually build better character in a young student/child. I don't know everything.