KungFuLuvva

how about a more specific question? starting wing chun always frustrates smart people because they can learn something and absorb it intellectually but making your body comply and relax is the real challenge

Iranians are extremely good martial artists. They take arts like TKD and actually make it completely street effeciant, not to mention they are teh world champs in many martial arts such as TKD , Judo, uncommisioned kick boxing, and often times wrestling [usually between iran and russia]

yea i was trying to say, in this case, it wasnt quite used as a jab, but quite often that's the type of punch wing chun practitioners use for jabbing/icebreaker , whatever you want to call it. i just showed that clip because it was teh first one i found that even showed what i was talking about at all. yes steve swift taught my dad for about 9 years, my dad and my sifu phil nearing were in his group of first student just when he came to chicago from hong kong. my dad says he's one of the most deadliest men in america and i definately trust his judgement. im not quite sure what you mean by elbow being in or out, sry. it's kind of like a snapping punch for when your angled off from your opponent like a jabbing position.

i'd definatly give this one to boxer. IMO they are very street effective, hands like pistons with sharp feints and what not, and good foot work. for street fighting i'd even go as far as to take boxing over kickboxing because kickboxing is all full commited strikes, they dont teach much technique anymore, its all about power. also kickboxers tend to like a lot of space to be comfortable, they also like to take their time which isnt such a great trait in street combat. muy thai is another story though, they have a lot of street effective technique and are more comfortable at closer range than normal kickboxing. the one thing a good boxer would need to add in to be more effective is a few simple low kicks and he'll be good for real life encounters.

i used to think TKD was very ineffective until i saw iranians use it. they have the best/most applicable street style TKD because there are so many real fighting encounters over there. this is the reason they are often the world champions of the TKD sparring, often better than korea themselves. i remembor at one point they were world champions in every single category including women's. seeing for myself some of my dad's friends use real street TKD convinced me that any martial art can work for you as long as you believe in it and are realistic about it.

ok ok i got a little clip of the wing chun back fist. this is my dad's old teacher, steve swift. http://www.swiftwingchun.org/video/demos/2002_8_BeginnersBasic1_19/BeginnersBasic1_19_56k.mov your right about wing chun not typically wasting movement, but this backfist is often used as a jab/icebreaker. its like usually you expect that he's going to block it, and you traps set up for him when he does.

ahhhh...not really. ok this back fist im talkin about is like when ur standing angular form the opponent and its a snap out from ur elbow, the elbow, unlike a regular WC punch, moves out like the hinge on a door. its a jab, and you cant do it if ur squared off from the opponent. the reason i said its more advanced is because i dont know a lot of WC pple that know it. i know it from my dad that took it for about 9 years, so i guess that was just an assumption on my part. and then there is the backfist were u hit the person standing behind you, this is in WC as well. this backfist jab im talkin about in no way shape or form looks liek a normal WC centerline punch, believe me.

eh... no thats not how i meant, the backfist in wing chun is different from its normal punch, they use a backfist like punch as a jab when ur angled off to an opponent, its a more advanced thing. the normal wing chun punch is the same at all angles, but can look different dpending on teh distance, even tho it carries the same mechanicism. the backfist and the normal wing chun punch are 2 different things. here's an ok thread on the wing chun punch http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=7021&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

i was referencing to western boxing. ill use the word pugilism if i want to include all fist styles...just so we're clear on termonology. wing chun punch is definately not a jab, and you do not have to be walking in motion to utilize its full potential, thus teh one inch wing chun punches that we see from masters. the punch can be used from many angles, from laying down flat on your back, to invading with a full body motion. it looks weaker than a boxing punch because it erases all of the unnecesary body motion that is wasted energy. if you shoved someone as hard as you could with your hand in the form of a fist, the impact wouldn't hurt at all. thats because its pushing power rather than explosive penetrating power. boxing punches all have some pushing power in them, thus the swinging of the punching bag. a perfected WC punch however, minimalizes the amount of pushing power with mechanical efficiancy, and thus you are left with a very explosive and penetrating style of pugilism. this is probably the most difficult part of develping WC skill, and when you try to imitate it, it will definately feel weaker your first time practicing it, but thats only because you're not used it or developed enough in the areas you need for it. the reason it isn't a jab is becuase jabs are executed when the body is angled from the opponent, WC punches are made with your shoulders more squared off from the opponent, and are meant to do damage, not poke like jabs do. the form of jab that is used in WC is kind of a backfist thing.

oh my lord no lol....its quite teh opposite of what your thinking. infact western boxing punches are more like pushes. when a boxer punches a hanging punching bag, it swings and sways from side to side, when you hit the bag wing chun style...it stays in place, all the pushing power is erased. instead of swaying, the bag should actually vibrate wiht intense explosive power. totally different than boxing punches, no push in it at all, the demo's u see of the one inch punch are done in a fashion so that the participant isnt harmed. theres tons of threads on this topic, research a bit around here, and u'll find some great ones.

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"First off, when you're in a clinch, its rather difficult to strike" ok ok...you based most of your entire argument off of this...and wow, if you read just a little bit closer, you wouldnt have had to waste so much breath(typing). "now mind you i did say its all about the "instant hits" so yes...if i wait to long to hit or try to play your game by getting you into a headlock or grabbing you back, then i will be in your domain." i dont know if you misunderstood this or just completely missed it, but it would have saved you about a page of typing there. I dont know how else to say it, maybe you would understand it better if i said, once a grappler enters my trapping range...or hit the very instant of clinching, i.e. (someone grabbing my arm, or lunging, shooting for your comfort zone, however you want to put it). Now i know it takes a good amount of experiance to get a feel for ranges, but dont tell me its easier said than done because as an inexperianced fighter, i've been successful on more than one occasion against very vicous wrestlers. "Fighting goes well beyond one hit one kill." I've never relied on one hit kills in my life and anyone who does is very naiive. The instant hits i have been talking about are to loosen up the grapplers resolve, then to of course follow up with combos. What i meant was that if someone can take just one hit like that with being detered in the least, then i have no business fighting someone like that, it would be a very very obvious mismatch of power. The way i look at it...a one hit ko would be nice, but i'd never stop to find out if it happend for me or not. "Thats just pure ignorance- the ground prevents any type of effective chambering for punches when you're on your back. Anytime you want to trade punches with anyone when you're on your back, 10 out of 10 people will have no problem with it." It's something we call elbow energy, it would be very tedious to explain, nor i do have the full capability to put it in words(that would the kind of paper to get your doctra's degree), so just take my word for it that no shoulder is used in our punches. a WC practitioner with a very well developed punch should be able to break a board while lying flat on his/her back. Something that comes to mind...i know its just a stupid movie...but Kill Bill 2. When Uma is trapped in the coffin she demonstrates my idea. Have you ever seen a 1 inch punch? having grounding does give you more power, but with out the theory of elbow energy, WC 1 inch punches would be physically impossible. I KNOW THAT a fighter on top has a significant advantage when trading blows, i was just giving something to think about, not something i would be counting on in taht situation. "Wheres that clip of Benneteau vs the Wing Chun guy" I already addressed that in another thread, so i'll reitterate. "Btw, about the UFC, i've seen the supposed "Wing Chun" people....but if they didnt tell me that i would've never even guessed. they had there backs slunched over, low sloppy gaurds, and fought like any other UFC monkey. I didnt see one single WC charactoristic, not even the stances were recognizable. UFC MMA's are a breed of there own, its a lie if they tell you someone from a legit kung fu style is fighting. It's just a commercial ploy to earn more false reputation. i have a clip downloaded of a "Wing Chun" person fighting in UFC, he was so bulky that he couldnt even move, not one single WC movement in the whole fight. Real GM's of kung fu styles will not go into leagues like UFC because the moves are to dangerous and easily do permanent damage. That's why there's no Wing Chun tournaments, its a deadly art made to kill, not for sporting on tv. theres a big difference. "Against an experienced grappler? I dont think hapkido would do much in the grappling phase." Once again, i said this, "if not performed instantly, the grapplers gets his chance to control you. " What makes you think being good at grappling helps against hapkido joint locks? They were designed for the instant someone lays there hands on you, not for grappling. I'd say not all of them are completely street effective, but many of them are very pratical. I learned a few good ones a couple of weeks ago, and i've been thinking about them alot, replaying it in my head and such. a couple of days ago i was messing around with one of my friends and he grabbed my collar very hard, so i pulled an armbar move very quickly, and he ended up sitting down on his knees. i've seen others use similar joint locks very effectively against people trying to go in for teh grapple. its all a matter of experiance and reflex. if a hkd practitioner is fast enough to get off the reflexive joint lock, how will you grapple if your down on your knees praying he wont snap your elbow an wrist? "I can appreciate the fact that you express your opinion while not outright saying "grappling sucks!" " Believe it or not, the thought never crossed my mind. grappling is just something thats there, it exists, and it happens. i take it for what its worth, and i wouldnt hate it anymore than something that occured naturally such as rainstorms. i just dont believe in the mentality of it being a primary method of self defense. "In the event a fight gets broken up, the 3rd party jumping in to break it up is your "self defense" because you're no longer in danger of being hurt " and if that party is there to hurt you....uh oh...looks like the spider has been entangled within its own web... "You seem to be thinking more about your ego." Naw...more along the lines of not getting arrested. you want to remain mobile if you can help it. i dont know how u came up with the ego thing. "Sounds great in theory, the idea of hitting and running, but harder in practice. " of course its harder, but if a 55 year old renta cop with only 2-3 years of WC experiance can do it...well...i'd say it can be done. and aside from the whole running thing, i once read an old australian newspaper article about a WC practitioner locked in a cabin room with 12 angry sailors, and managed to defeat them. i dont know how reliable australian newspapers were at that time, but if i ever find that article i'll try to post it. "Muay Thai has had much more success than Wing Chun, and yes they can be taken down as well. " Says who?? UFC?? but yes, in those clinch situations as you mentioned, i'd give muay thai equal chance because they put a substantial amount of effort into elbows and knees. oh btw i really appreciate that comment about my age your teh first in this forum to mention it, i really gotta find out how to change my profile, cant seem do it for some reason. but anways...i learned to disassociate age with experiance when i got my * handed to me by a 10 year old in a chess tournament. and i'm one of the top 4 players in my highskewl of over 5000 kids. the couple above me are almost pro, they've been to other countries and states for tournaments. but anways, i wouldnt rule out aikido so quickly, NO MATTER WHAT one person has told you. there ARE different variations of the art, some more combat orientated than others. i have a few well developed aikido friends who go to more combat suited classes. i think they would beg to differ with your theory of aikido being an inferior art. in my opinion, judo is OK... i like some of there tosses, but whatever tosses they have, aikido will have more for different situations. again, it depends on the variation and school.

heard taht works for sharks too, though i'm not willing to try it