RealWingChun

I had an instructor that taught this technique as part of a PPCT course. It was aimed at the side of the neck, and used to cause temporary blackout. I had to be the guinea pig once, and I almost went completely out. Interesting. In some Okinawan Karate schools at least, a relatively light back fist attack to pressure points is considered more lethal than a thrust punch aimed at the same points.

Good advice. Iron Palm/Fist/Body, is a fundemental part of most major style kung fu training, but just like the kung fu training itself must be overseen by a competent kung fu sifu.

Interesting, please elaborate further on this. Hello, Perhaps I should not have used the word "complete". Suffice to say that there are many elements that I have not seen referecences to in Yip Man's Wing Chun. That is , there is more to Wing Chun than just what was taught by Yip Man. There are internal training aspects; ground fighting; punching and kicking aspects as well. There are other lineages of Wing Chun, that seem to contain elements that don't seem to be present in Yip Man's lineage.

Agreed. But the fact that he did not complete Wing Chun, let alone master it is not a story. However, that does not take anything away from Bruce Lee, as far as him being an exceptional martial artist is concerned. I don't think that he ever claimed that he did master Wing Chun, nor any other style, for that matter. He was know to be somewhat arrogant, but not so much that he diluted himself into thinking something such as that. I do believe that he probably spent enough time in Wing Chun to figure out what he did/did not like, and was able to tailor his own training thus. I agree with this point. He was obsessive/fanatical about his training, and his physical condition as well. Good points.

Agreed. But the fact that he did not complete Wing Chun, let alone master it is not a story. However, that does not take anything away from Bruce Lee, as far as him being an exceptional martial artist is concerned. As we have agreed, he was good at what he did. And part of why he was good was because he trained extremely hard.

He certainly did not improve on Wing Chun. I agree with you there. That is funny though. That is what many kung fu (and traditional karate )masters will tell you as well. That is, learn your style, drill it, etc. Then take what is useful for you as a person and use it efficiently and hence effectively. It is common knowledge that Bruce Lee did not complete Yip Man's the Wing Chun system when he left for the States. Some people will even say that Yip Man's system was not complete in itself either, but that is another discussion. Anyway, it seems that he may have been half way through the system, but I am not sure about this. All I know is that he did not complete the system and that he had quiet a way to go to do so. What I am saying here, is that maybe if he had used his incredible and tireless training routine in the practise of any other martial art, lets say Kyokushinkai, that he would still be an incredible fighter.

I am not sure I understand that question. Do you mean both of the " softness training" and "the practical applications training"? Yes. That is what I mean. In that case both can be trained at the same time, as long as the concepts do not clash with each other. That is, your practical applications training will use the "soft" approach, in line with Tai Chi training concepts and methodology. Even with this approach, it will take longer to make this art effective in a self defense scenario then an external style such as karate. For most people, the development of internal strengh for self defense takes a relatively a long period of time.

He was not a fan of styles. But it is always a good idea for one to MASTER a style first; possess an essence of that style; and UNDERSTAND that particular style, before one goes about "improving" it. In Bruce Lee's case he came up with some interesting ideas, notions and philosophies, some, if not most of which had already existed in kung fu. Credit must be given to him as his philosophy and training concepts worked for him. He could even be considered a martial arts (not kung fu) genius. One does however wonder wether he wouldn't have been as a good fighter had he not practised/trained in any of the traditional or not traditional fighting arts, training as fanatically as he did in his Jeet Kune Do. There is no denying the mark that he has left on the martial arts. The mark has both positive and negative sides to it, but I prefer to see the glass half full rather than half empty, even though sometimes that is difficult.

First of all when you learn any new art you are doing a certain amount of overiding anyway. More with some arts and less with others for sure. Some of us find it worth the while to do so because of the benefits that await us at the end of the tunnel. And of course, some of us don't because we do not want to commit the extra time, or we want to enhance our "natural" responses, and so on. That is fair enough. What is significant regarding karate training, including the katas, is that the art has existed for centuries and the main reason for that is that it has worked as a fighting system, and if taught and STUDIED correctly will continue to work at the present and in the future. A fundemental part of the correct study of karate is the study of KATAS as explained/preached/justified by various masters of karate and its various styles/schools. If there was no research to say anything otherwise then maybe that says something about the credibility of Kata. Remembering of course that kata training is just one aspect of karate training, there are other aspects such as kihon, kumite, meditation, and conditioning. Another important point to remember is that part of being a master is also includes being a teacher and a RESEARCHER. Many of the great masters have done their own research and have even changed their styles of karate based on their research, but they have not discarded kata training. That says something. One mans universal common sense is another man's illogic. Are you saying that Funakoshi, Oyama, Egami and Yamaguchi, who were probably the greatest karate masters of the 20th century. Exponents who devoted their lives to the practise of karate and yes RESEARCHING karate, because all high level karate (and kung fu) training involves research, had no common sense? The above statement describes the situation of the western world today. That is the world of medicine, astronomy,politics,etc. However, as far as karate, and I'll bring in kung fu here, are concerned, there is a legitimate place for katas and forms training in their practise. Hundereds of REAL masters (teachers,researchers,fighters, warriors, scholars),have considered them as fundamental parts of karate/kungfu practice for many centuries and continue to do so. Of course, by using the term 'real masters' I am not referring to masters of shopping mall Mc Karate, who possess 20 dans, etc. I believe that the misunderstandings regarding kata arise mainly because of the unprofound way that kata are taught nowadays by many so called senseis, and of course our "I want everything now" and "I know it all" cultures where what we ourselfes don't see does not exist. Kata works in many levels that may not be immediatly apparent. There are the more physical levels such as the exercise itself and its keep fit and conditioning properties. Then there are the techniques which have many levels of applications, that is a set of movements may have one application for a beginner and another for the more advanced students. Here we are entering the aspects that are not so visible. And while we are on the subject of things not so apparent lets bring in the all important BREATHING in karate practise. There are many types of breathing in karate practise and katas are an important tool for the practise of breathing and their relation to combat. We may go further and take as an example the Sanchin Kata - particular to the styles of Goju, Uechi-Ryu styles of karate among a few others -which is an internal conditioning kata which helps develop a strong body resistant to blows and strikes. It is not much to look at, but internally it is a very demanding kata, this is body conditioning, but from the inside. Welcome to the internals of karate training. Going back to the technical side of katas. No real and credible master of karate will expect one to learn dozens of techniques to use later in real combat. They will however expect one to know of dozens of techniques within their style but be able to use the few that works for them. Furthermore, one eventually progresses from the technical proficiency gained through the mastery of katas and their applications to understanding the PRINCIPLES behind them because in real combat one will be using the principles of one's style together with the relatively few techniques that one has found useful and that have become part of one's self. So, at a high level to understand the kata is to understand the principles behind the particular style of karate that one studies. So all is not what it seems with katas.

This leads to an another interesting issue, and that is, wether what Bruce Lee actually practised in his final years, was really kung fu, or was it something that was influenced (perhaps largly) by kung fu, amongst other things, and hence lacked the essence of what kungfu really is (We must remember that Bruce Lee never mastered any given style of kung fu, not even Wing Chun). This in turn leads to the question of wether we can use Bruce Lee as a reference anytime there is a discussion about kung fu.

I am of the opinion that the nature of the art itself can sometimes determine the training methods. For example, in order to make Tai Chi function as a martial art one needs to nurture Chi and softness, i.e. Develope the internals. Without the internal training there is no Tai Chi. The use of soft energy is fundamental part (nature), of the art itself. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to develop this type of force and hence it takes longer to make Tai Chi effective in a relatively short period of time. RealWingChun This may be the case, but who says you can't alter the training to work in both at the same time? I am not sure I understand that question. Do you mean both of the " softness training" and "the practical applications training"?

Eventhough one cannot deny the sporting aspects of Shotokan karate, the art itself can still be used as an effective method of selfdefense. This is because all the ingredients are there. Also, as I understand it and based what I was told by a 7th dan japanese Shotokan master, the low stances are for training purposes and that in a real fight one fights with a higher stance. This pararells some of the Shaolin arts, where the stances seem unpractically low because (for the most part), they are for training purposes. The exponents use higher stances during real combat. Of course, there are also practical uses for low stances in actual fighting, such as hitting a fallen foe or making low level strikes, but that is a different area of discussion. Furthermore, the people who practise Shotokai karate use low stances, but their movements are flowing and soft, similar to some Okinawan karate styles and dare I say, even to kung fu. They use the low stances, but do not participate in competitions. The Shotokai practitioners call themselves exponents of Budo Karate. Their training includes the nurturing of Ki (Chi). They also claim to be the real heirs to Funakoshi's karate teachings and they could be right. Their main founder was master Egami, reputadely Funakoshi's main disciple and the late chief instructor of Funakoshi's school the Shoto-Kan. I believe that they do practise the same katas as the Shotokan but in a softer and more flowing fashion. Their kumite practise is also different. The fact that they do not hold nor participate in competitions is closer to Funakoshi's teachings than those of Nakayama's JKA Shotokan who also relate themselves to Funakoshi. Their techniques' "softness" is also more similar to that of Funakoshi's own relaxed way of movement. Anyway, I wrote too much. Just trying to point out that low stances do not automatically mean sport karate nor impracticality for fighting. I personally believe that with diligente practice, one can use even the low stances to good practical use, taking full advantage of their power and stability. There are some lineages of Shotokan who take this view.

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, life is too short, but here is my 2 cents worth. Katas are the soul of karate, I really believe that. To become a complete karate-ka, one must practise katas diligently. One must UNDERSTAND the katas that one practises and their real life APPLICATIONS. One must practise in such a way as if his life depended on it. One must bring kata practise to a meditative state where one will absorb the kata at a subconscious level. Do all the above and then you will understand why katas are such an important part of karate. One of the most important things to remember is that the old masters, be they Oyama, Funakoshi, Egami, Yamaguchi or whoever else, were also TEACHERS. If they stressed the importance of katas, then there is a good reason for their statement. If someone is going to overule them, on a professional level, then they should produce matching credentials.

Still, I find the act of yelling a little strange for a kung fu practitioner. I believe the loudest sounds in kung fu are usually made by Tiger stylists and that is because of the specific breathing requirements particular to some of the Tiger styles. As far as I am aware most other styles of kung fu do not yell. The only time that I yell in kung fu is when I am hit hard

Hello and welcome and good luck in the coming tournaments.