kgcobra320

Was it the 73 form? If you are already studying Ba Gau and Xing YI, I would think that Sun style would be the best style for you. KG

While hard, consistent and long training in tai chi will allow you to use it as a combat system, my experience is that tai chi is really great for augmenting other martial arts systems. What you're doing in tai chi is teaching your body how to move properly on a really precise level. Proper body mechanics equal better performance with physical activity. I agree completely. Also, I have found the sensitivity training through push hands to be a very beneficial addition to my current style. KG

I'm currently practicing Yang style mostly because the teacher is very good and the class is local but if I could choose, I would practice Sun style. Xing Yi has been long known for it's combat effectiveness. The footwork of Ba Gau is a very useful skill from a self defense perspective, especially for a Shotokan guy. Sun style has elements of both of these styles and is why I would pick it as the one to study, if I could choose. But I do think that any of the major styles properly taught and practiced would work just as well. IMHO the principle skill in any of these styles is the sensitivity skills taught through the exercise of push hands. This is a key element to the effectiveness of Tai Chi from a self defense perspective but unfortuneately takes a long time to learn. KG

Most styles were originally complete combat systems. When the various styles were somewhat watered down for reasons such as cultural change or for sport/competition, that's when the style delineations really started to deepen. As you stated there was a shift away from combat purposes, and I agree, I just see it as less complete for what was there originally. KG

IMHO, Sun style is the one to practice for combat effectiveness. It was developed by Sun Lu Tang who was an accomplished practioner of Xing Yi, Tai Chi and Ba Gua. He took what he considered to be the best aspects of the three and combimed them into what is known as Sun style Tai Chi Chuan. He was well known for his fighting abilities and this was culmination of all of his years of experience in the martial arts. KG

I truly hear what you are saying but don't get me wrong either. I'm not trying to propose that one particular style is the outright sole mother of all other styles. However, the longer I train and the more I study other martial arts, the more they all start to look the same. I just see a lot more similarities than differences and from this perspective I don't have much tolerance for statements that suggest one style is better than any other. KG

This may be the case with many Eastern Martial Arts, but it is not so for arts around the world. Western fighting arts, ranging from the Greeks to the Romans to the Europeans, had no Eastern roots at all. If you check closely a lot of those did have eastern influence. I don't really believe so. Style such as pankration, Hellenic wrestling, and Hellenic boxing do not have any Eastern roots that I am aware of. There are arguments that feel that many styles root themselves back into Egypt and even Africa. The fundamentals of hand to hand combat have been around for quite a long time. The human body has not changed during this time and the ways and manners in which the body can be manipulated has not changed either. Any culture, at any time or place in the world, that studies hand to hand combat for any length of time, will eventually arrive at the same fundamental techniques. Clearly, given the expanse of the earth and the inability of humans to travel across it early in time, resulted in the delelopement of indigenous combat systems. I'll rephrase my earlier statement: Most commonly known and practiced MA today, have Chinese roots. The similarites are just too obvious to ignore...... Irregardless, I think you missed the flavor of my post.... KG

As was said before, many times, and I completely agree, that any martial art is as practical a self defense method as any other. It is mostly a function of the practioner than the art it'self. Many if not all MA have Chinese roots and if you study the forms of Tai Chi closely you will find them composed of techniques that can easily be found in nearly all other MA. A core element of Tai Chi as a self defense method is the ability to sense all aspects of the opponents force/intent. Being able to read/sense the magnitude, direction and overall intent of the opponents technique and instantly respond with the appropiate defense is, IMHO a main focus of Tai Chi. This skill is partially honed during the practice of push hands. I say partially as there are other aspects of the art that come in to play such as relaxation through meditation. This ability and it's implementation is my loose interpretation of what is commonly referred to as the "soft" part of the art. It is a very difficult and takes many years to achieve a high enough level of proficiency in Tai Chi for it to become effective for self defense. For this reason, most students fail in the long run, but for those that stick it out, the reward is great. I believe that any martial artist can benefit greatly from the study of Tai Chi and to a certain degree I also believe it to be the fundamental core of all MA. It has been said many times over the years that Tai Chi is the ultimate MA, I believe this to be true...... KG

Or maybe there were generations of instructors that failed to create the proper learning enviroment, in which asking a question would be well recieved. KG

Most MA masters from way back only knew 3-5 katas. I agree completely. Minimizing the number of techniques is one of the rules that I was reffering to. If you read the personal histories of various MA masters you will find that body type was the main driver in determining style/kata to focus on. Applications that are not mistake prone, another good rule. Keeping it simple and utilizing instinctive body reaction, two more excellent rules to follow. Here are a few more: Utilize major motor motions. (works during the adrenaline rush) Capitalize on repitition. Works on left or right side. Works on most body types. Works from natural of shortened stance. KG

I feel that the analysis of the various katas that has been going on recently is not only a good thing but is a necessary and natural trend reversal. The emphasis on competition over the years has turned kata into a performance of combinations of basics with little or no study of applications whatsoever. I am in no way suggesting that kata practice in this manner, doesn't have any benefits but as we all probably suspected, there is a lot more to it than has been conveyed. In my opinion, kata and kumite practice are one in the same and should be treated as such within the curriculum. The established JKA basics, kumite, kata curriculum, doesn't lend itself well to this idea. As to whether the applications being developed are original, I don't think that it matters. The katas were originally formulated from a mixture of styles and as such, the term "original" doesn't really apply. What is more important is that whatever the application is, that it passes all of the rules that make it a good application. In the end, pressure testing during kumite will weed out the ones that don't work. KG

Shotokan, like a lot of other striking arts does indeed have takedowns and some limited ground techniques but usually does not employ extended ground fighting. If a striker takes you down, then on the way to the ground you are usually being hit. Once on the ground more strikes will be thrown but the goal would be to get back on two feet as soon as possible. In short, if the situation presents it'self such that a take down will allow the application of an incapacitating blow then it is usually taken advantage of. Even though a properly executed throw to the ground alone, can be a fight ending technique, (head meets concrete) strikers usually combine it with other techniques and continue to strike while on the ground. KG

Since you mentioned in your post that one of the reasons that you started training in Karate is to be able to defend yourself, allow me to give you some advice. Some Shotokan schools are heavily rooted in point based sparring and as a result are not as practical in terms of self defense techniques. The techniques do exist in Shotokan and are contained within the katas but not all schools teach them. If your school does not teach/employ these techniques during sparring on a regular basis, then you are missing a large piece of the art. If this is the case, you might want to find another school or ask your instructor what his or her teaching philosophy is, in this respect. It may be that they do indeed teach the techniques but only after some basic skills have been acquired. Point based sparring has it's benefits and from a SD perspective has some really good long range techniques but lacks in other areas. BTW, even after 11 years in Shotokan, I still get sore after a really hard workout! KG

Excellent analogy! I've seen quite a few knockouts that involved simply ducking a punch and following with a right cross/uppercut. Basic, simple and effective. We are trained to deliver the counter as fast as possible. Done correctly, it almost appears to be one technique. But I hear what you are saying. I think that the issue of practicality, of any MA is situational. In some, if not most situations I think that basic self defense techniques are very effective. In my mind these situations are the ones where you sense that an attack may occur but the attacker has no idea that you are trained at all and if you are successful then the altercation is over. If, for a number of reasons, your attacker is trained, your counter was ineffective, etc, you are not successful, then your cards are on the table and the situation has changed dramatically. You have lost the element of suprise and in these cases I think that the shortcomings of JKA are revealed. In our dojo we usually say, "If the Shotokan cannon hasn't dropped your opponent, you better run". But as we have already discussed, the techniques that might be necessary in these stiuations already exist in the kata they just need to be extracted and trained on. KG

At times, I second guess my critisism of the JKA training style, as to whether it would be practical in a real world self defense situation or not. It seems to me to me that some kind of upper block or lower block, depending on the attack, coupled with a strong reverse punch should be fairly effective for most situations. It is basic and has been etched into the minds/bodies of most JKA karateka by years of repitition. Basic and second nature, in the midst of a high stress moment, isn't that the formula for a good self defense technique? Why wouldn't it work?.......Any thoughts?.... KG

As I said, I do not regret my Shotokan training at all. from a proper body mechanics perspective, it is one of the most technically accurate MA's out there. I have seen a lot of improperly performed blocks, punches and kicks in other dojo's. In Shotokan, without a doubt, you will learn how to perform these techniques, utilizing proper body mechanics to develope and deliver the maximum amount of energy to the target. It is simple, strightforward and efficient but as has been discussed, it is not the perfect MA. I think, as some have already alluded to that a lot of MA's suffer from some kind of shortcoming. My personal opinion is that it is not the art itself that matters as much as it is the instructor. KG

It really does help reduce the frustration/confusion understanding the "why's" of this issue. At least there was some kind of strategy for modifing kata, not teaching applications and in the overall training. Well they certainly do not advertise themselves as such. I wonder how many beginners would have chosen Shotokan if they had knowledge of the overall training philosophy. Don't get me wromg, I do not regret my training in Shotokan. I do wish though, at some point, maybe the 4-5 year mark or so that practical applications were introduced. By now they would be firmly implanted. I like to get the most out of the time invested, in whatever I do. Now after 10 years of training I feel that I'm lacking from a practical self defense perspective, for no real good reason. I have started to explore the applications in the katas and have been slowly incorporating them during kumite. I will continue to refine and strengthen the "Shotokan cannon", use it where it makes sense and use the kata applications where they make sense. From a positive perspective, this has renewed my interest in training immensely and provided a new layer of technique to explore for years to come. KG

Thank you Mr Redmond. I was hoping that you would chime in and as expected your comments are right on target. I don't intend on over-focusing at all, but some of the applications are just too darn simple, efficient and effective to overlook. A good example is in the wind-up for the various blocks. A standard knife hand block could easily be a simultaneous block/eye jab disruption followed by a strike to the throat. These basic applications are what i believe could really amplify an already proficient shotokan practioners technique. After all of the repitition of these basic blocks and after some level of proficiency is achieved why wouldn't the applications be taught. Seems to me, a very logical progression of perfecting technique. Sort of like in the movie "Karate Kid" where he is shown that painting the fence, sanding the floor and waxing the car are actually karate techniques. (Sorry for the cheesy example) I don't know, maybe I was supposed to have figured it out on my own. Maybe I've just been lazy and complacent in my training but this has been bugging me for some time now......just looking for answers I guess....

"Try looking into some of Iain Abernethy's literature. He has been writing works on "Applied Karate," which includes something called kata-based sparring. It might give you what you are looking for." Yep, registered at the site and have been soaking up the material since. Great site, I'm going to order his book and a couple of the bunkai DVD's. "Kata IS the training. Basics come from kata, kumite originated from there (depending on how you use it, it's either close to the trunk or out on a limb). " Yes, we were always told that the practice of kata was the practice of basics and I understand that. But the self defense techniques as they exist in the kata are not taught/practiced/employed during kumite. Kumite is practiced more from the sport/competitive/point perspective. I have rarely seen the combinations of self defense moves that exist in kata performed during kumite. Actually, the way that kumite is practiced, with the opponent attacking in full length front stance, makes for an unrealistic situation to even try to use some of the kata techniques. I'm in no way saying that somone trained in sport/point kumite methods is not capable of defending themselves against an attack. Sometimes those techniques are quite applicable and effective. It's just that there is so much more availible to us, burried within the kata. "Keep searching, everything eventually comes together. They teach you on a formula, and wait for you to put together the final equation. " Here lies my real question: Why isn't it just a regular part of the JKA training curriculum. KG

I guess that after 10 years of traditional JKA study I've started to question the fundamental training philosophy a little bit. Basics and kumite and then kata but the kumite does not contain any of the kata applications, any but the most basic that is. It's like the kata is not connected to the rest of the training. After all of the repitition of the basics, burning fundamental techniques into my mind/body, why not release the true applications of these techniques that exist within the katas? I have just discovered that a knife hand block is not just a block....... I feel a little ripped off.........maybe I was supposed to figure them out myself....... KG

I bumped this thread back to the top, as I feel there is still more to this subject than what has been discussed thus far. I've done a fair share of reading for the last three months or so, on the history and developement of modern karate. Without revisting the entire history I think that most Shotokan practioners recognize that the karate that they have learned is not the same as was originally taught. I compleatly understand the reasoning for the changes and to a large degree appreciate what the changes have accomplished, bringing karate to the masses, that is. The question that I have is this: Why does the JKA still continue to teach karate in this fashion? Why not reinfuse the art with the original kata bunkai and make it a complete MA? IMHO this is why, to some, that Shotokan appears to be more sport that practical. The bunkai are there, they just need to be taught! KG