Scott James

Propaganda film. Good, but still a propaganda film.

He did two more movies, Black Belt jones, and Black belt jones 2, the tattoo connection. I have read some reprints of some old interviews in the 70's. He had big ego, and I always figured that played into his short film career.

MY TSD Forms are the original TSD forms taken from Shotokan. Basics emphasis straight Linear techniques. There is very little emphasis on Jumping techniques and spinning. There's no Jump spinning. Chambering of hand techniques : High chamber low technique and vice versus.

TSD= back fist Shito Ryu= Hammer fist\block I like the Shito Ryu application best. Considering that GM KEE "learned the form from a book" he may have just chosen to make it a back fist. Shito Ryu teachs it as a hammer fist. As you advance you see alternative application as being a downward block, then a perry block (the technique in question), then a foward punch.

If you have to ask that question that's a sign right there. Go look at other schools and compare the skills of the advanced belts. Unfortunately, you could live in a McDojo only market. Then it's a matter of picking the best McDojo.

Yes, It is. The Forms are different and there are some slight differences in chambering and some blocking.

Yes

MDK TSD was asked to join the other Kwans and unify under the title TKD. Some schools did and others did not. I have seen very few MDK TSD schools but the two I have seen are pretty much the same as a TSD. One school used the ITF TKD patterns for kata. That was the only noticable difference.

O sorry. I read your comment to mean the Japanese changed the name. I disagree because the style was created during the occupation and formalized after. My comment was saying the Koreans may have changed the name after the occupation. Nothing was going on there while I was there, I was just shopping around. It was like Thursday afternoon.

Considering that TSD, and MDK were developed during the occupation and formalize just after the occupation I would need to disagree. It's likely the name was changed to eliminate foreign connotations, much like it is now called Soo Bahk Do. I have seen Kong Soo Do and I have Dang Soo Do used.

GOM, I agree with Bpoch about the break falls. I see more emphasis on aerial throws in Korea and the need for Break falling is much more Important. I also agree that from what I have seen there's more emphasis on flash here. It's hard for me to gauge though because being an american watching a class I have seen the instructors raise the level for show. Where In Korea did you study? I am curious because I have never seen aor even heard of anyone offering Karate In Korea. I would love to go check it out.

It's funny, I am here in Korea this week and It so hard to find anyone who has even heard of TSD. I was at the Kukkiwon yesterday at one of the shops having a conversation with a guy, who kept insisting that TSD does not come from Korea. I was taken aback only because While few people here even bring up TSD I have never had someone flat out say it wasn't Korean. While I agree it's Orgins are not Korean, I cannot agree that it is not influenced by Korea. Aigaios, Hwang never says he learned any Japanese art during the occupation. He claims to have leanred form Chinese master living in Manchuria while fleeing Korea. While I cannot confirm anything Hwang says, or deny it either, it's hard to really discount the similarities in styles. I suspect he, like other Koreans during the occupation learned some form of Japanese Karate. If so, that information died with him and we will never know who he really learned from.

I do Chinto in Tang Soo Do. Pretty much the same form. There's one added cresent Kick on the opening sequence. I see that alot with Korean versions of Japanese kata. The bigest difference in in the pacing. The Korean version does not slow down. Every move is fast. Other differences I have seen: My school uses side kicks out of the crane stances. I have seen other TSD schools use a front kick. I have seen this variation in different Ryus as well. Tends to be flashy in Korean. For example, some people teach the side kick on the crane stances to be very high, and the double front kick to be a very high jump. I also find the bunkai to be less descriptive in the Koren context. I have been using this form for years and spend alot of time reading about it to find better bunkai. The Ryus have been far more descritive in bunkai than any Korean document.

Don't get me wrong. The definately boosted the "performance" level because I was there. But really, the class was just like any other class I have ever sat in on. If anything, drills were a lilttle more repetative than they would be in the US.

I don't do HKD actively, but I do pikc things up from people I know. I have sat in on classes In Korea. I think most people would be dissapointed, I really didn't see a big difference.

TSDKID, Hwang added new forms in the 60's. The original forms that are taken from Shotokan were incorporated into the style in the 40's. They were taken from a book, admittedly by Hwang. Hwang never admitted to studying a Japanese art. However, the similarities are far to great to ignore. Like many Koreans in the Post Occupation period, he likely left out certain details in order to position his art to be more "Korean". Something all the Kwans did after the Korean War. It's something everyone did in Korean to take back their Culture after The Korean war. Rather than tell me what I don't know, please elaborate on what you do know.

TSD is directly based off Shotokan. Just look at the original kata of TSD will show you that. No, not every martial art is based off Shotokan, which is based off Shito and Shorin Ryu. (Granted all the Japanese/Okinawan masters of the late 19th century all influenced eachother); However, Modern Korean Striking arts are. hwang did claim to have trained in Takeyon as a child, but that has never been corroborate. At most it explains the additions of high kicks and spinning techniques, but it does not explain the other glaring similarities with Shotokan Karate. Bushido is correct in his historical analysis. Yes, the style has evolved, and as with all Korean styles today, is uniquely Korean now.

Very true on the stances. The longer stances are alleged to be an adaptation to the hilly, mountainous terrain of Korea. GM Hwang considered longer stances more stable and emphasized them in his art. "The lower your center of gravity, the more stable your stance". TSDkid, If TSD is not related to Shotokan, why are there so many similarities? Or do you consider TSD to be a total Korean Art with no outside influence?

Well Considering that Karate itself comes from Okinawa, yes you can say that the Shotokan forms are of Okinawan origin. However, the forms are taken from Shotokan. GM Hwang admits this in his writings (he refers to a book on Japanese kata). Even the TKD forms follow many of the same patterns and combinations (ITF in particular). I did not say that TSD does not have stylistic differences from Japanese arts. It does. For example stances, most Japanese styles use much shorter stances. But it does not change the fact that The Original TSD forms are taken from Shotokan. GM Hwang did change forms later. I will have to disagree, that TSD is a hard soft style. Well, in a way, yes it is, but soft elements of the style are not introduced until the advanced kata. For the most part, kata are hard and linear until the BB kata. Compare that to The Japanese Kata (not shotokan versions) were soft elements are introduced at intermediate kata. Now with that said, may I ask what you study tsdkid? Does your schoold consider itself Soo Bahk Do? Is it affilated with an international organization? The reason I ask is because TSD has changed over the years. Some schools, like mine, look more like TSD of the past. As I said before GM Hwang did change elements in the art over time.

The reason why you're seeing so many similarities in the arts is because of the Japanese occupation of Korea. Many of the founders of the different Kwans were in some way taught Japanese Karate during this time period, or in the case of HKD, Jujitsu/Aiki-Jujitsu. Hwang Kee claims that he took the kata for TSD from a book. I sometimes wonder if he said this to make His style seem more "Korean" This is not to say that the Korean styles are total copies. If you notice Korean versions of the forms emphasis longer stances and high kicks. The long stances may me attributed to Hwang's time spent in china during the occupation The main reason for such a foggy history of Korean arts has to deal with the occupation. Many of these arts were formed in the 1940's. After the Korean War, the Korean (south) government took measures to take back their culture. The Japanese pretty much would outlaw an occupied territories culture as part of its assimilation. Many of the masters began to rename things or come up with alternate histories to their arts in an effort to become more "Koreanize". Ultimately TKD won this marketing campaign and many of the Kwan unified under the name TKD. Hwang did not. But He did do the best to Koreanize his art. He discovered a Korean military manual called the Mooyae Dobo Tangji. He read and this and one section in particular that went over hand to hand combat. By adding techniques from this section and translating the movements into new forms Whang renamed his art Soo Bahk Do. The name was taken from ancient text describing hand fighting as soo bahk. Hwang defined Soo Bakh as any form of empty handed fighting. TSD MDK is pretty diverse at this point. In Korea it's pretty hard to find. In the US there are several international organizations. Some American schools that are not affiliated with any of the organizations are probably more representative of TSD in the past. The teachings are relatively unchanged since being past in from Korea. Whang's organizations while being his art, is probably much more evolved from where TSD was 50 years ago (I base this off my own observations in the US). In general you could really describe TSD as Korean Karate. It's not the best definition, but to most people it will due. Regarding Chuck Norris: Chuck learned TSD at Osan AFB in the mid 1960's. He was not the first to bring the art to the US, but he was the most famous.

The Octagon

I have never come across anything to suggest jujitsu is not of Japanese orgins. I have seen some instructors claim it's influence by "Shaolin Kung Fu", but nothing to support that.

Jill, I didn't sit at white belt I came to a TKD school from TSD so I was allowed to keep my TSD rank of 1st gup. I just didn't accept a dan promotion because the school's testing was really lame. I enjoyed learning the subtle diversity between the arts, rank didn't really matter. Testing fees are pretty common in the US. It really rasies a red flag. The thing you need to look for is how much the fee is. High fees are even more suspect. Nominal fees usually go along with some sort of cosst covering. Now when it cost more for higher rank, then it's time to leave! I never could see anyone justify why a white to yellow test should cost less then yellow to what ever is next. I'd love to sit in on this place, but I am only in Korea every once and while and usually on buisness. It really sucks because I have no time to check out places. There's only so many times I can look at the Kukkiwon. It really sounds like you do not like this school and you feel you're not getting much out of it. Are you in Seoul or outside? If you're in the city there's got to be someplace that's just a subway stop away. Then agian traffic in Seoul can make any short trip a long one Now a personal trainer from the US is a great idea, but it might be a little expensive

Very generalized: Jujitsu and it's decendant arts was evolved in Japan. Karate for the most part comes from Okinawa and was taken back to Japan during the late 19th century. Shotokan became prevelant and was spread to Korea during the occupation. Many of the modern Korean arts are off shoots of shotokan.

Jill, I can't speak for HKD directly. I know some Black Belts, but My experience and skill are in Jujitsu. However, working out with the HKD guys I can say we share this. Knowlege and skill in using Wrist locks. Mastery of foot work, moving to maintain balance and to take the opponets balance. Body throws, arm throws, controling the oppoent safly threw and entire technique. There's more kicking in HKD vs jujitsu. Gound fighting skills appear to vary. One guy I know is really good another guy is not. as far as weapons, one guy I know his school teaches walking cain. In jujitsu we work with a Jo staff (4 foot staff). Jill, are you happy with what you are learning? the promotion schedule aside, do you like the teacher and feel you learning somthing? Just don't accpet promotion. I have sat on my butt for 2 years in a school becasue I like what I was learning but felt the testing was a shame. Just because I didn't take promition didn't change the fact that I got a lot out ofbeing there. The fact that you ask the questions that you do shows you are at a level to appreciate knowledge over rank.