24fightingchickens

There is an article on my website that addresses this issue called Redmond's Axiom of Platform Dependency. The article is quite long, and I cannot go into all of the detail here, but the short version is this: The man makes the martial art, the martial art doesn't make the man.

Not at this time, but I will try and put it up on the web site later on. Maybe I can have it up there by the weekend.

But that doesn't have anything to do with lineage at all. It's more of a case of just "piling on". His refusal to discuss price over the phone revealed he is a salesman and not interested in straight up pricing for his services. That's good enough reason not to train with him. Not knowing his instructor is not useful information. I've met plenty of clowns with very famous instructors. The value of lineage is little more than a martial arts myth, imo.

Very sensible. The consumer has a right to know, unless you're the type of consumer who believes that the street corner bought Rolex is equivalent to the real deal. The problem with this thinking, imo, is that there is no such thing as an objective "good" instructor or "authentic" martial art. It's not like hiring a lawyer, where you know whether or not he passed the bar exam given by the state and whether or not he wins his cases. In the case of a martial artist, all you can verify is that he spent time around another person who spent time around another person. That doesn't actually mean anything at all, especially in an industry where credentials are largely meaningless social engineering and personal benchmarking - not objective realization of standards.

I don't think it is important. I wrote an article a long time ago called "Shotokan Family Treehouse" in which I decried the common practice amongst karate practitioners of trying to draw geneaology charts of their karate heritage as if they only had one instructor each. Myself, I have learned karate from all sorts of sources, certainly not from one man. My instructor is not my biological relative, they are just one of many, many people I have learned millions of lessons from that built up to my ability to teach karate. Citing one person would be pointless and silly, crediting one man with all of that work? No one deserves that credit. It's funny that people do not do this with non-Japanese practices. For example, you'd never draw your English language family tree, trying to tie yourself back to the original speaker of English or some famous writer. Nor would anyone do this with math or science. The closest thing would be when someone brags that they studied for a while under someone famous, but even then, they are negating all of the teachers that led up to their knowledge before they began with that person. I would say that I have learned various things about karate from books, tapes, some from my students, friends, relatives, and many karate instructors - some that I trained under regularly, and some that I only trained with once. The karate geneaology thing is something I used to do myself, but I see no point to it now.

I did karate for two years in Japan, and I never heard anyone say exhale or inhale the entire time. I just realized that I studied karate there all that time and never even heard or learned these words! Posture = kamaekata Follow me= Japanese would not say this. They tend to say "Kochira no hou e" which means "This way..." Relax=yawarakaku shite (make soft) Practice=renshu shimasu (v) keiko (n)

Your question falls under the "Why are you asking us instead of your instructor?" heading. Ask him, not us. We cannot tell you what he will do. He can.

I think Westerners who do white-uniformed Japanese sport karate (referred to usually as "traditional karate" but really hardly traditional) often try very hard to be more Japanese than the Japanese themselves. They will form a militaristic sub-culture within their karate clubs sometimes that rivals or even surpasses that of very rigorous groups such as the famous one from Takushoku. They can be quite militant. While for the average Westerner, I think your generalization would be accurate, for the average Westerner fascinated by Japan, it is not. In fact, there are obstacles to filing a lawsuit. Most attorneys will not take a case unless there is some precedent or hope of winning. To date, within the US at least, no karate instructor that I am aware of has ever been held accountable for his student's behavior. Gun manufacturers have been sued as liable for use of handguns, and these suits have been thrown out or found for the defendents. My teachers taught me to read and write. If I write something threatening, my teachers are not called to task for it because they gave me the skill. I am responsible for how I use it. No lawyer would take that case, I believe, because the chance of success would be very low, and would likely result in a summary judgement in favor of the instructor. In the US, I am safe if I do this. Besides, it would not be difficult to demonstrate in court that most who seek karate lessons in the US are potentially disturbed or unstable - otherwise why do they pursue a violent hobby? Videogame makers have not been held accountable either in our country. Not yet. The day these sorts of liability are demonstrated as successful will be the end of capitalism, as no one will be willing to produce any product and sell it nor teach anything to anyone for fear of how it might be used. I will agree with you that we should all hope such a day never arrives.

I won't say what others should do, but I definitely use English-only terms for technique names and commands when I instruct. Using Japanese just gives people that "This is so cool it is like we are samurai" feeling at the expense of solid communication. Ever heard one of those teachers who does not know how to speak Japanese but speaks like he's from Japan and stutters like he isn't a native English speaker when he is teaching karate?

I was not offended, just making a joke. You can call me whatever makes you feel comfortable. Karate instructors are not held liable in court for the behavior of their students in the United States. Not unless they coerced or threatened them to behaving poorly. People take shooting classes, and the instructors are not held liable when the student shoots someone. A baseball coach is not held liable if a pitcher throws a baseball at another child and injures him. We are generally held accountable for our own behavior. I teach a skill, and while teaching it, I slide in some inspirational and motivational speaking, but I don't try to control those that I teach or make rules of mine for them to obey outside of class. Something would have to be very serious or happen in class for me to become concerned. No, those are just more titles, more labels, more social engineering. I can see who it is that has skill because of how they move and also how they comport themselves. I can tell who the coach is because he is standing in the front of the room telling us all what to do. Ranks are artificial. They just give us a goal at first, and later on, they make us feel self-important. We do not get anything else from them. They do not help our income, get us a better job, nor serve others as indicators of skill, since we do not necessarily get them for skill reasons. They are social status within a hiearchical group still operating using the militaristic culture of Japan's war-time society. Funny that people learn baseball all over the US and become great players without ever being "ranked."

Rather than advance health club, how about "company baseball team." That's how I view it. It is something I have done my entire life. I started karate as a child, and I've trained for decades. I did it the ultra-militant way most of that time, meditating 30 mins a day, hitting a makiwara an hour a day, training for an hour in the morning, and hour in the evening, and then teaching a two hour class. I subverted my career, education, and everything to the purpose of running my life in accordance with the principles of karate. I tried to become that mystical zen figure who is hyper disciplined. I am on the other end of that journey now, and let me share with you what I think of the trip. What a total waste of time that was. I succeeded only in making myself miserable, missing opportunities to be more well-balanced in my life and experience other people outside of my karate circle. So forgive me, but I have taken my karate way too seriously for far too long, and I will not do that any longer, because the result in my skills, mental abilities, emotional state, and such was actually less than for some people who were not taking it nearly as seriously as I was - people who did it for fun seem to have gotten more out of the experience. That has been my approach for some years now, and I much prefer it, and I recommend it. Ever seen Mr. Baseball? "Baseball is a game, and games are supposed to be fun." Karate is a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun. It is entirely possible to become a better person without suffering more than the average person, I have learned.

Pick karate. I will give you a different reason to choose it over kendo, even though I think Kendo would be more fun and require less investment over the long term. The reason? You said "I'm in love with samurais." Do not be in love with the samurai of Japan. Historically, they were cruel totalitarians who were brutal, racist, and xenophobic. Everything they believed in and stood for was the opposite of what we believe in our societies today. The samurai did not believe in freedom of speech, religion, the press, nor any of our other rights. They believed people were born into their class, and everyone needed to be willing to die for no reason at all in a terrible way just to entertain someone if necessary. The samurai thought that life had no value. They only valued duty. They would kill a peasant just because he looked at them wrong or because the sword hadn't seen blood for a while. The samurai were famous for slaughtering any foreigner that washed up on the shores of Japan. The samurai were stubbon and insular - rejecting guns and other technology in favor of time-honored traditions which led to Japan finding herself at America's mercy in 1854 when Perry sailed into Edo Bay with his gunships. If we consider world history, and the great accomplishments of mankind, we find that they exist in most countries other than Japan until the 20th century. The reason for this, I believe, is Japan's historical use of fuedalism and the oppressive atmosphere of their society. Kendo has nothing to do with samurai or Japanese sword play. It is a game Japanese children play with some bamboo sticks and armor. Learning kendo would not bring you closer to the samurai, and for that you should probably thank God, because one of them would kill you where you stand for saying the word "samurai' if he were brought back from the distant past to meet you. The samurai way was a culture of death. The more I have read about them through the years, the more they disgust me.

You've been given many. When I trained in Japan, my instructor did not have terms for attacker and defender. He instead refered to the defender as the "ukeru hito" - which means the receiving person. And he referred to the attacker by the technique they were using. If it was a punch, he would say, "tsuku hito" - which means the punching person. I've often heard the term tori and uke and many of the other terms here at home, but in Japan I never heard it once.

If that were true, no one would "osu" at me, use -san after my name, or say "domo" to me. LOL! To be an effective instructor who is not an intrusive, manipulative, and over-controlling sort of person, I believe understanding very clearly the "scope of authority" of a karate instructor is very, very important. It is not within the scope of authority of a karate instructor to attempt to control the behavior of his students outside of his karate class. Only when they are on his property (rented, mortgaged, or paid for) that their behavior can be held against them. Customers of a karate school are not employees of the school and therefore cannot be held responsible for representing it or its owners. They are not agents of the school. Karate instructors are coaches, just like any other after school activity coach you might have or a teacher in any class in school or college. They have a class, and you behave in the class or they can admonish you and ultimately have you removed. How you act in your own home, on the street, around town, and otherwise outside of his class is none of his business. Unless you take some illegal action or become involved in something that results in him needing to remove you from the class to protect himself or his other students. For example, you becoming convicted of a violent crime would justify his removing you, because refusing to teach people headed for prison or fresh out of prison is any school's perogative. If you are commiting libel or slander against the teacher personally or his operation, you might be removed. Otherwise, I don't think a karate teacher has any business what you do in your private life. And a good question would of course be, "How would he know unless you tell him?" Black belt is not a job nor a responsibility. It is the equivalent of a certification from a training operation providing after-hours training. For example, certification in project management or in managing computer networks from a company would be similar. These people offering this training and these certifications have no expectation that those certified will conduct themselves in any particular fashion. They are not agents of the trainer- they are customers. I disagree. I believe in observing healthy limits. There is a degree of striving for self-improvement that is healthy, and then there is a further degree of it that reflects obsession and perfectionism. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I know when I am doing the latter because I begin to experience unhappiness and others around me start noticing I am cranky. I try to be nice to myself and not hold myself to an unnecessarily high standard while not being so easy on myself that I allow myself to flounder and flop about. The same way you do in baseball, football, soccer, tennis, and every other sport on the planet that is not karate. Ranks really are unnecessary. We just keep them around because we expect to see them.

In fact, yes, this is OK. They can act the bad boy and shun being a role model. Because someone is an athlete does not make him responsible for mentoring a generation of children by exhibiting only his best behavior. That is our job, as parents, not the job of people on the TV. Probably because he violated his contract, broke federal law, lied about it, and then was caught red-handed. There are plenty of people in that hall of fame who were not role models. Babe Ruth and his drinking and eating binges, plus his filthy mouth, was certainly no role model. I am careful to raise my kids by openly commenting on this sour behavior and pointing out the dysfunctional personalities of these attention and glory hounds with their outrageous lifestyles born from having everything they ever wanted and now becoming bored. The only reason they would see them as role models is if they see dad and mom looking up to these people and giving them the time of day. In my home, we do not. So this is not a problem for us. Again, it is my job to raise my kids, not the NFL's. I don't think it would be fair to expect the folks in professional sports to raise my kids. They aren't even adults themselves, emotionally, and I doubt they are up to the job. I know they are not volunteering for it. It is not pure skill level. It is a combination of factors which render karate rank virtually meaningless. For one, there is no objective standard to be met to receive any rank because of differences between human beings. Largely, ranks are granted for self-improvement in skills, attendance, social status, coaching ability, bringing in lots of members, promotion ability, and a host of other characteristics including good looks and tenure. Anyone taking someone else's rank seriously has, imo, an idealistic view of what karate ranks are really given out for.

Boy, you guys sure do have a lot of complications due to not asking all of the students to mind their own business and let the teacher do the teaching.

Any age at which they can meet whatever the requirements for the rank are that the instructor has set. Another person, even a kid, receiving a black belt does not affect me, it does not affect my students, and it does not reflect on me, so I do not care what others do with their ranks. Ranks in karate are largely without transfer value anyhow, as you cannot get a better job, a scholarship, or be considered more qualified for anything else as a result of receiving them. That means that being a 3rd dan is akin to being a 4th level elf in D&D. It is important to me, and that's the only person it is important to. As for what I believe the requirements for a rank should be, I'd like a shodan to be able to compete in a Shotokan tournament without wetting himself, freezing up, or hurting someone by accident. I'd want solid knowledge of the required kata, solid basic kumite skills, and I'd want him to have 2000 hours of training under me if he started as a beginner, and 500 hours under me if he was a transfer from another school. I don't like age requirements, because everyone is different. I don't like fixed time requirements, because some people come to class once a month and others train all day long. I think accumulated minutes is more important than accumulated tenure. But then I think of ranks as being purely skill tests and certifications - like recieving a diploma in some other craft or subject matter - up to a particular level. After that, they are a confusing mish-mash of politics, tenure, social status, examination ability, and ability to referee. Really, karate ranks are actually pretty silly, if you ask me, beyond a certain stage of training, because they basically amount to rewards for toeing the company line and expanding the reach of the association rather than actual learning or ability at anything. I also am not impressed by the practice of expecting students to serve as "seniors." As I have written many times before, I believe that the silly and rather recent so-called tradition of having the senior students function in a leadership capacity is a not a good idea. When I take a class in school, there is a teacher, and there are students. That's it. Anyone there ready to teach who wants to needs to leave already and strike out on his own. They can always come back and play student if they want later on. So, expecting someone, because they have a belt rank, to be a functioning leader is to diminish the very special and unique and quite rare characteristics that comprise leadership ability in human beings. It is not just something you get through status. Leadership is both a natural talent and a skill as well as a function of personality.

I hope they can hit harder than I can. I'm a middle aged Dad doing karate for fun these days. I have trouble swatting my dog on the rear to get her out of my chair. But breaking your hand is the result of bad alignment on impact or hitting with the wrong knuckles on the hand - not from hitting hard. Human bodies don't offer much resistance to cause a break in the hand on most target points. Maybe some of these guys need calcium, and the rest wear gloves because the corporation that sponsors the event insisted on it for insurance reasons.

No, I don't think so. I have hit lots of things with my hands, including parts of the human head while fighting, and I have never broken my hands. I think it is becuase I know how to align my wrist and have long years of training that helps me do that in real time when hitting something. I have no trouble hitting something that has any give to it with my bare knuckles as hard as I can hit. My experience does not jibe with your opinion, so I disagree. Also, I can do a lot more damage with my raw knuckle not being cushioned by a pad. If I put a pad over my knuckles, I am not hitting any harder with my arm and shoulder muscles, but now the impact surface is cushioned? If I believed this backwards logic, I would also have to believe that eating a chocolate cake would make me lose weight. Protecting your hands also equals protecting your opponent. It allows for knock out blows that don't break jaws. I have some training in jujutsu to accentuate my karate skills. While I am no jujutsu expert, we did not wrap our hands while practicing. We needed them fully free in order to apply various grabs, locks, and such on our opponents. All that proves is that the guys in the UFC are unskilled brutes who rely more upon their inherent mean-ness and a certain quality of having nothing to lose by being brutalized over a weekend. I've only seen one karate player break a hand in my lifetime of training. It requires quite a bit of clumsiness for a karate expert to throw a punch that results in their hand being broken. Especially after having pounded a makiwara for decades bare knuckle. From watching the UFC, and I have, the image I am left with is one of very sloppy fighters who are much tougher than I am, but who lack anything approaching any kind of striking technical ability. I also note that the modern day karate community is almost nerotically concerned about the possibilities of going to the ground. The chances that you will be attacked by a BJJ person are very low. In my experience, my fights have not ended up on the ground. I hit, they have dropped. I don't understand how these guys manage to hit each other so much without knocking anyone over. I once was punched in the ribs, one snapped, and the nerve shock put me on the floor instantly. I wonder what the difference is between the UFC, and my own experience in hitting people? Because lord knows I am the last one to say Shotokan is so great and it made me into some kind of warrior. I'm just an insecure geek with a nerdy hobby as far as I am concerned. But the few times I have been in a pinch, I have gotten through it OK without rolling around on the ground. The last guy that ran at me like a football player I treated just like I learned to in football and I decked him. I don't understand why everyone is so concerned about shooting attackers - unless they never played American Football and don't know how to handle a lineman coming in low.

There is no way to protect the hands with pads which do not weaken the impact of punches.

The thing that seems to affect the color spectrum the most is whether or not the instructor makes a profit from sales of belts. LOL!

The belt colors vary from school to school and association to association. There is no such thing as a "Shotokan Belt System." Typically belts get darker as you move up the ranks. White-green-brown-black is pretty basic. Some schools throw a blue or purple belt after the green. Some schools throw in an additional yellow belt after white. Some throw in an orange belt after the yellow. Whatever the system, it doesnt really matter or mean anything except to you and your own sense of accomplishment. Try not to think about it and enjoy yourself. There are so many other great battles to pick that you can fight with karate organizations - this one is not worth it - though it is philosophically entertaining to discuss possible motivation for having so many pretty belts.

Neil, This is normal for a shotokan class, imo. The standard loadout for a shotokan class is stretching out, marching up and down the floor doing stepping basic techniques, doing one step sparring for a while, doing some kata at the end, stretching out, and going home. 9 out of 10 times I bet that is about what you will find in any Shotokan club. The guys who mix in jujutsu are few and far between.

If you told you, you would go

One of the problems with the UFC and any training situation where a friendly wrestler takes on his karate buddy is the difference in experience. There is experience, and then there is training experience, and they are two different things. Karate players train at training. They do not actually fight anyone in their classes - they spar - which is pretending to fight. They do not actually break people's bones or poke out their eyes. When finally confronted with someone to fight for real, it might be the first time a karate player has ever been in a fight, and it isn't surprising they get their hats handed to them. Wrestlers, on the other hand, actually do their method of fighting when they compete. They use everything they have pretty much the way they would use it on someone in a self defense situation. Karate players do not. So, wrestlers, I believe, build up experience, while karate players build up training. Karate players become professionals at practicing karate, not professionals at *doing* karate. So, when I see these guys fight each other, I'm not surprised. The BJJ guy goes in knowing what it will feel like. The karate guy stands there wondering what it is like to actually put his fist into someone's face, wondering if he has the guts, etc. And in friendly competitions, of course the wrestler has the advantage. The floors are padded, not concrete slab, and the karate player cannot actually do anything that will stop the wrestler cold. The wrestler is pretty much free to ignore pulled punches and still take the guy out. Even UFC hobbles the karate players by putting them on a squishy mat and padding their fists. That's pretty much the fight right there. But comparing martial arts is pretty much pointless - again - there are so many variances betwen people and their abilities and things left up to chance that you never know what will happen. I like these experiences, and I am also not surprised that the big cheeses of the karate world avoid them like the plague - because they are humiliating.