daedelus4

I am not personally familiar with the "Sao punch" but, if it is " a round punch that starts above the shoulder, tha punches down and across the body" as described above then I find it very difficult to believe that a Wing Chun player, much less a sifu, would not only get hit once by this technique, but 5 times. However, assuming that this actually took place then my guess is that the sifu is not as talented a fighter as your friend. Unfortunately, many who call themselves "sifu" are either anything but or alternatively, out of practice from teaching only and no practice. Your friend's experience with this sifu is in no wise descriptive of all WC fighters however and you should not take it to be so. Presuming that all WC fighters are like this sifu could be potentially bad for your health.

It seems the line has been drawn and--I have to agree with Hansen.Not only is a palm strike more effective in a real fight (and yes I have used it in real fights, not UFC or some other tourny) than a closed fist but, having your hands up & palm open has the added benefit of making yourself look less like an aggressor in the event the police show up and want to cart your expert butt off to jail. Not to take anything away from a punch, if you have good striking ability and focus so as not to miss your target, then a punch is a great tool. But, it is easier to cause damage to your opponent when you engage in a fight, especially if in the beginning of that fightyou have the knowledge that your knuckles are not hard enough to withstand the impact--did you do your knuckle pushups today? Let's try to remeber what part of the body we are talking about here--you ever hear of "Iron Fist" training? Or is it always "Iron Palm?"--ok,I was kidding, that was a rhetorical question but seriosuly, physically the palms of your hands are capable of taking a whole heck of a lot more punishment than your knuckles and as Hansen said, losing a weapon can and often does cause the direction of a fight to change real fast! Remeber that mind and body post of ovine_king's? after harming your knuckle/hand, whether it be broken, sprained or just swollen will make you less apt to throw it out there as often. I am talking about real life here people--yes, some can go on in spite of the pain but this has ALWAYS been the exception and not the rule! One pragmatic reason why the maxim: "I train so that I will never have to fight" is true is because real fights, on the street, in a bar, or elsewhere, has the ability of not only teaching one how really fragile the human body is and but also teaches the hard lesson of why you should be training for perfection (Injuries suck! whether you notice them during or after a fight) Further, knowledge of the frailty of humansteaches to be forgiving even in your victory. Likewise, it is easier for a woman in danger or merely in a fight to cause greater damage via use of the palms as opposed to a closed fist. Granted some women are brawlers and have the capacity to give some vicious blows but for those that don't, and since it is more expedient for them to cause great damage faster, than a guy faced with a similar situation, I highly reccommend it when available. (I am not a woman, but I finished teaching a self-defense clinic tailored to women about a month ago and it has given me another perspective on fighting) It is just an opinion. Hopefully for those of us reading this post, it is theory that will never have to be tested but, if you find yourself in a fight and you have manged to land a punch--and it hurt--try your palms (Assuming I don't have to mention the elbows, knees, shins, feet, etc.) Sorry about the length of this post. Oh and BTW, nice handle daedelus! I figured someone else had the same handle but for some reason I could not register with my normal handle

I agree wholeheartedly! Not only that, Isnt the palm heel strike more pwoerful than a punch- and I could be mistaken but I could've swore that I read that the bones in your palm are much harder than the cartilage in your knuckles--but as I said I could be wrong.

Actually, I want to compete on a higher level than point fighting but not as high as UFC for the purpose of spreading the efficacy of Wing Chun in actual combat. WC has gotten a bad rap as of late and I want to do my part in changing that perception. Although there are many valuable, useful and effective arts out there, my personal feelings is that WC is one of the best. Not only because of the techniques but also because of the ability to use them in a fairly short amount of time. This is kinda off topic but what is the average time that any of you other WC fighters out there think should be devoted to practice, forms, sparring, etc. before WC shoudl/can be used effectively in a real fight. My guess is that a person who trains hard would be well equipped against most people after on ly 1-1/2 years of training.

Just out of morbid curiousity: has anyone ever allowed yourself to get into a fight even though you are/were confident that you could diffuse a situation for the sole purpose of getting some "fight time" in? I have not done this for a number of years (Pinky swear!) but I must admit that after I had studied for about 4 or 5 years sometimes I would allow myself to be goated into a fight. I remember wanting to get into a big bar brawl like in the movies (dumb I know) just to test myself out in a multiple attacker situation. Anyone else out there have too much testosterone as a martial artist?

The only real similarity that I noticed would be be in a comparison with huen sao in WC. I only studied White crane for a short time but liked it very much. I thought it important to add a style to my repetoire that had more circular movements to balnce the linear strikes of WC. My intro doesnt state so but I have also studied shotokan, taiji and Judo (not to black belk rank) but far enough to get the basic principles. I must admit that like Jeet Kune Do and Straight blast gym's "aliveness" principle about technique, I have a habit of stealing the best of the forms that I see for the purpose of expressing myself in a fight. I have heard it said that not practice, but perfect practice makes perfect.

Kenpo4life: It has been my experience, that if you really want a fight to end then you must use combo's--meaning punch and dont stop punching, or kick if you prefer-- I dont know so much about the combo's used in movies, i have never had a jean claude moment where the guys fought in slow motion and I could really nail them. The best my experience has given is a few well placed punches and suprisingly, joint and elbow locks.

true Lueng ting did come from yip (Ip) man and he is the one who made the big deal about the spelling initially (WC vs. Vsing Tsun). I guess my only contention with your statement was that they are not all the same and in fact can be very different. I cannot say anything about those other styles effectiveness in real life situations though having never studied a system outside of the Yip(IP) man lineage but, from what I can tell even though the other systems may have different ways of expressing WC, they keep the same theories. Probably, they are just as effective. In the final analysis, the different systems are essentially many roads to the same location.

I have never competed in an actual MMA event although i have extensive sparring experience. My wife and her father teach TKD in her home town so I would come in and spar with their class or on occaision if a jr student got out of line by being overly aggressive with either sensei (my father-in-law) or other students we would arrange a little you-dont-know-as-much-as-you-think-you-know sparring with the class. In return I would have my students cross-train with his class but nothing formal. Unfortuantely I no longer live in the same town otherwise he would be an excellent resource but I kinda want something similiar to what is actually used in MMA events like thai fighting, syukoshin(sp), etc. I miss having a full dojo at my fingertips!

menjo: please forgive my typing skills, I am still a two finger typist, what I asked was if the other MA instructors willing to help you train toward your competition goals even though you were not a student of theirs? Or did you become one of their students to acquire the training?

not all WC comes from Yip man, some learned from lueng bik, some learned from chan wah shun, some learned from others, and not all WC styles or even forms are similar, for example the style by randy williams, a pretty well known WC guy in Chicago and who is a very good instructor looks totally different than the WC as taught by william chueng or emin boztepe--which by the way are not the best of friends even though they both were taught WC under yip man, william chueng directly and emin via lueng ting's student

come in with a hurricane? Does that mean be very persuasive? Did you you instructors of other styles receptive to your goals?

thanks for the advice menjo: Question, did you do a lot more sparring to prepare for your tourny experience?

ok, ok, ok, I admit it! Perhaps I was remiss in my comparison of UFC to WWE--sheesh! (smile) I am finding out more and more that sarcasm does NOT translate well over the net. For all of you fans of UFC, I apologize. I only meant that like in WWE, even though you know somes strikes will be made, the match ant over until someone gets pinned--and yes, I know wrestling is fake but, I think it is still good tv besides, you know the talent those guys must have to do what they do? I would be willing to bet that most of them have a martial arts or traditional greco-wrestling background--if nothing else to learn how to land properly. Anyhoo, I did not intend to offend. Thanks for the tip though supergalactic, I am currently checking out som NHB events in my area.

White Warlock:Thank you for your straightforward-ness and no-holds barred honesty. I like to think that I give people the same attitude of honesty and it is nice to get it from others. Unfortunately however, I think I agree with you. I say unfortunately because I was really getting excited about the possibility of competition, I am a really competitive person, but I think you are right and the constraints on competitions will probably prove too restrictive. As it is now, I basically train as if I will be in a competition anyhow so that wont change but, It would have been nice to disprove some of the things that I have heard about WC. Again thank you for your thoughts

raven, it is essentially small circle jujitsu combined with the budo principles and even some aikidoand judo looking techniques. Kinda like a mma for jujitsu techniques. You should be able to do a search on the web and find more info if you are interested. Not a bad start if you are interested in submission and grappling styles of fighting. Its of particular interest if you practice a style that is lacking in ground fighting

And yet, most of the time they do. I am familiar with most of the people on your list and what respective styles they have--and I did not imply that they never strike, obviously you have to--but most strikers have the ability to end the fight while standing and yet it usually ends in a ground and pound situation. Mixed martial arts should mean just that I think---mix it up. Dont get me wrong, on the ground the guys seem extremely proficient but I have been in quite a few fights myself (not tourny fights) and only one of them have ever been to the ground. And then my ground fighting skills actually played no role because their were several people who then commenced to kicking the h*ll out of me, so it is not really realistic fighting to simply charge and try to get the opponent on the ground. I am just waiting for the so called real fighting event such as the UFC, particularly because it is my favorite, to showcase martial arts in a real fighting environment. But back to the main question, since I do not intend to enter the UFC or any grappling/submission events, do you have experience in tournament fighting? Have any advice to offer?

Not to start a debate/fight within the same style but WT is not "More AGgresive" than WC--they are both very aggressive if taught correctly. But, having typed all of that, I think either Emin Boztepe or Master Leung Ting himself actually sought to officially change the name because they wanted to distinguish the Yip (IP) man lineage from other lineages. Don't quote me on this because I might be mistaken but, I am 98% sure. There is a lineage that is also spelled Ving Tsun but from what I have seen it is not the same as the style taught by those who learned it from the late great Yip (IP) Man

That nervous-ness you feel might simply be adrenalin. welcome it, thank it--it will make you move faster, perceive quicker and respond decisively. I have never been in a fight where I did not feel afraid--and I have been in a lot!--but having said that, once you recognize how your body reacts to conflict you can make peace with it and it becomes easier to calm yourself.

I do not know if this guy was serious or not but I wanted to respond to it because I have had similar experiences. I have not all of the fights that I have been in, one of them was with several people and although I took care of the first guy pretty swiftly and ferociously, his friends got me on the ground beat the crap out of me-I do not consider this a real loss though because I made it out alive--but my point is that once you have been in a real fight it not only does it act as a deterrent to others--particularly if you live in a smal town like me, but it helps you improve both your art and to stay out of more fights because then you have the experience of what it feels like to have someone, or several someones to genuinely want to cause you physical harm. It teaches you to be diligent in your art, especially of those particular techniques that work for you, to become more aware of your surroundings and the people in them and to recognize the warning signs of aggression which is invaluable! I do not suggest going to a bar and starting a fight like in the van damme movie because chances are the bouncers will trounce you out before your opponent but if nothing else if you happen upon a fight in progress take mental notes, watch if you can do so safely, and soak in the entire encounter if you choose not to help out (self defense classes are inaptly named because sometimes you must use your art to protect others) and apply the your learning in your sparring or visualize the experience when you run forms.

I have to agree with Ovine in his description of a backfist as similar to a fut sao that improperly comes across the outside gate and that a jab is basically to set an opponent up for a more powerful punch or test test the waters so to speak and that WC does not do that. At least nothing I am aware of. Even in a boxing right or left cross the power generated is accomplished by movement of the hip and shoulder instead of the entire body so I still in my own biased opinion think the WC punch is both more powerful and effective because given the same distance a WC punch will generate more power, all other variables such as strength of the puncher or body type being even, because of the technique behind the punch

okay maybe my boxing coach when I was younger taught me wrong, I can live with that seeing that I left boxing never to return but I have never seen a jab that, like WC, uses the elbow for power. It's always the hips, and shoulders with a slight rotation of the fist when contact is made to try to get an abrasion going on the other guys face. And isn't a backfist the punch that starts at one side of your face/shoulders before it is extended out, using the back side of your fist? Does not sound like WC at all

ravenzoom, I refer you to the rule of "the side of the page" I have extensive experience in budishin jujitsu which teaches a lot of submissions as well as takedown defenses. I am quite comfy on the mat. But, I dont intend to go to matches like UFC. To me UFC is like WWE. Obviously, UFC is real but what I mean is that it has become nothing but wrestling--this is off the topic but has anyone else noticed this? Good TKD-ers, thai fighters, etc give up their style it seems when it comes to UFC and instead play the grapple game only. Thanks for the input hopwever, raven

WC punch a backfist? Wow that is a first! I have never heard aWC punch compared to a backfist before

I have gotten fed up basically with everyone saying that wing chun cannot compete with arts such as muai thai, the various forms of karate and other styles and am looking for advice or aid if available for transforming my wing chun into a competition art. Initially I will try point fighting then work my way up to k-1 type of events (screw UFC) but specifically does anyopne know the rules for/against stop-hitting or trapping? I know that in some competitions that my fellow WC players have entered the judges would not allow stop-hits or pak sao which is basically a slapping hand defense but am basically unsure of what the typical rules are. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.