elbows_and_knees

definitely.

Huh, sounds like the history of most martial arts. :-/ Anyway, thanks for the link - it's an interesting site. nah, not really, but almost. some styles have just been naturally convoluted over time. There is still written history of them though. much of the thai history was lost in a fire - similar to that of the shaolin temple, I suppose (but the fires were due to different reasons) resulting in the loss of written records of the thai arts, their origins, etc. Consequently, not much is really known now, other than what has been preserved over the years and taught.

I was responding to this. That is why I said bjj was judo.... using the same context that he was. TJS, you're missing the whole thing I'm discussing dude. See this quote from me, above.

that all depends on what you train for. if i train for the ART I will take a traditional martial art- if its taught right and I train well, it can be devastating. if i train to fight, I'll cross-train- it will cut corners of the training and not get caught up in the philosophies of a martial art. Personally, I'd rather go with the art. it will take me longer, but I make sure my training doesnt create a weak martial artist. and right now, I dont need to fight, if it ever came to that, I wont stand and fight, I'll defend myself and get out of there- but i dont train for sport. wrong mindset. you don't crosstrain to cut corners - you cross train to fill gaps. training in longfist will not make you proficient at groundfighting. training judo will not make you proficient at striking. EVER. these are gaps. Granted, i can use my judo to deal with stikes, but I still wouldn't be able to strike properly myself without crosstraining. your average kung fu practitioner will never be as good on the ground as a bjj guy or judoka. plain, simple truth. crosstraining can fill that gap.

what prompted that?

that is actually villalobos' site, it I remember correctly. I think the only thing that's really sketchy is the origin of thai arts. thailand, burma and cambodia all claim they are the founders, and if you look at arts like bando, it is VERY similar to muay thai.

minor. the guy stabbed for his neck, but I pushed his hand down while trying to restrain him. The guy then lowered the knife and stabbed my buddy in the leg.

actually, there can be more. the spray lingers, and there are always bystanders. when you spray in an area where there are many people, a few may get hit indirectly or walk into an area afterward where the cloud is lingering. I recently read a study that said within like 20 feet, a knife stood a better chance of beating an undrawn gun. So, within 20 feet, gun vs knife, knife wins if the gun is holstered.

this train of thought is asking for jail time. If someone rolls up on you and they are unarmed, you can get away with mace, but any other object is asking for trouble, legally, as the force may not justify the means. that said, i always have a tactical flashlight and freeze + p spray on me. I usually carry my folder, but have never had to pull it. When I am at my second job (bouncer) I usually have the spray, the light, cuffs and my baton. On occasion I'll have my folder. The baton is more of a deterrent than anything. When you have a big muscular guy carrying a metal stick, people tend not to get rowdy. this is all true, unless (depending on your location) your attacker is, say, twice your size. if a guy who is 150 shoots a 250lb muscular guy in his house, hes pretty safe. I'm not talking about in the house - I'm talking about on the street. I actually just had a preliminary hearing the other day about a stabbing that happened in my club. another bouncer and I had to escort a guy out, and the man stabbed the other bouncer in the leg. We are bigger than him, so his defense was that he did it in self defense, but it won't stand up. he's going to jail, most likely.

finished up? you quit?

look up pedro villalobos. he teaches muay thai and krabbi krabbong, but I believe he teaches muay boran also. muay boran is an attempt to recreate the old muay styles. somewhat of a mish mash of the knowledge of what's left of the older, no longer existant muay.

studies like this will depend on the people you are testing, not what style they train. you will be hard pressed to find someone from any style who punches harder than tyson.

why would you think boxers don't punch from the hip? watch the uppercut, hook and cross. they are all from the hip. the motion is smaller because they are better at it, generally. we throw *literally* hundreds to thousands of punches per day, so over time, we learn to make the motion much smaller - tighter and faster while still producing the same amount of power.

boxers do NOT punch from the shoulder....don't ever let one hear you say that. karate's reverse punch is identical to boxing's right cross. the footwork and hand position (chambering of the other hand) are different, but the punch is the same. I can't see your punch, but my initial guess is that it's too slow.

in the older muay, there were forms. Most of the older muay are no longer in existence. they were abandoned for muay thai, as muay thai embodies what has been most effective in the ring. A lot of the techniques in ong bak actually are techniques from muay lon lon, muay chaiya, etc. however due to impracticality, they were removed from muay thai.

maybe. but essence is in the eye of the beholder. IMO, the essence of MARTIAL arts is in the fighting and the competition. These are the things which are honing your martial skill. IME, the wing chun guys I know aren't really that good with their hands at all. Especially when compared to a boxer. They have fast hands, but not necessarily good ones. but in the ende, fighting is fighting, which is what medici is saying. On another forum I post on, they use to have a saying concerning traditional fighting: "look at that guy - he reverted to kickboxing instead of using his traditional skill." That statement always irks me. Why? 1. they said it about any supposedly traditional stylist who didn't look like they were fighting with traditional technique. 2. you can't revert to something that you've never trained in. 3. it would've been sloppy kickboxing even if it were kickboxing. 4. "revert" makes it seem as if the traditional style is superior to kickboxing. But, it did make one thing apparent to them - that fighting is fighting. On it's most basic level, pretty much all styles look alike.

confidence is one thing, overconfidence is another. overconfidence can lead to oversight, which leads to open holes that can and will be exploited.

the problem there is that strikes are not always so easily landed. If he's provoking a fight, he's expecting you to swing anyway. He will be ready to evade. If you miss, now you are in a fight anyway. By warining a person, you are giving them further notice that you are preparing to retaliate, making them even more ready. In my experience, warning never works anyway, unless you are physically intimidating in some way. I really don't know a lot of men who freak out at the sight of blood... As for your last comment, i carry my freeze spray at all times - what's ridiculous about it? many of the men I know carry their blade on them at all times. I have mine often, but it's a little longer than 3 inches, so to be legally safe, I don't always carry it.

this train of thought is asking for jail time. If someone rolls up on you and they are unarmed, you can get away with mace, but any other object is asking for trouble, legally, as the force may not justify the means. that said, i always have a tactical flashlight and freeze + p spray on me. I usually carry my folder, but have never had to pull it. When I am at my second job (bouncer) I usually have the spray, the light, cuffs and my baton. On occasion I'll have my folder. The baton is more of a deterrent than anything. When you have a big muscular guy carrying a metal stick, people tend not to get rowdy.

traditionally, kung fu does not use a belt ranking system. Today however, many schools do.

I have found that to be false in my experiences. I have yet to meet someone training in an indepth internal system that has any fighting skill beyond what a good external stylist has. Theorizing has not helped them much in that area. It may help them explain principles better to some, or possibly give them a deeper reason for believing in qi, but has not done much for their fighting. I don't disagree with that. but the principle is there, regardless - it's not unique to cma. As far as weights vs chi goes, strength training produces residual tension in a relaxed muscle. sure, this is against most thoughts on qi cultivation. but, bodyweight exercises also go against that principle. In addition, constant tension in the muscle doesn't mean that the body can't fully relax. and since there is no possible way to strike without using the muscles (some say you use tendon strength, which is false) then there is always tension in the muscle while you are fighting anyway. truth based on what? that's like saying all taji practitioners are tree hugging hippies... I've noticed that you say "kung fu" when referring to what others have trained and "authentic kung fu" when referring to your training. Why do you think yours is more authentic than anyone else? I don't think that's true. you even touched on it yourself. back in the day, styles were classed as high or low level based on its internal nature. thus dragon was considered high level. Tiger, having little or no soft qigong training was considered low level. IMO, that is backward though. In a fight between a tiger stylist and a taiji player, my money is on the tiger stylist. Is that not faith? a person is not gonna spend an hour a day doing qi cultivation exercises if they don't believe in qi. whether he was or not isn't the point. If my friend was resisting, I don't think he could've hit the same small point that he hit on him while he wasn't resisting. as stated before, that is not a necessary component in fighting.

happens a lot in muay thai too. We call it a cut kick.

a baton is great in close. you can hit and dig with the butt end of it. Also, what if you are jumped, but they are still at a distance, i.e. you are surrounded? the baton is better in this scenario as well. even if you are tangled, you can spray someone. Heck, spray your hand and rake his face with it. good discussion so far though, keep them coming!

which do you prefer? They each have their advantages and disadvantages. the ASP has a greater reach, but leaves you exposed more if you miss the knife can do great damage but has a short range the spray has medium range, but may miss its target. it will still burn him if you are using fox, but I personally don't know alot of people who use fox. I use freeze +p. I'll be getting fox next, though.

the extendable is actually quicker and just as reliable. they are HARD to collapse once extended. you have to jam it into the concrete to retract it. hitting someone will not make it collapse. Also, a good baton like the ASP is very like - lighter than it's wooden counterpart - so it's faster to swing.