Kam

By bloodying a nose or breaking it, granted you may end the confrontation - however in todays ever increasingly litigous society you may end up in another confrontation....in front of a judge! Have any of you guys watched a boxing match - or UFC etc. where a guy throws a punch that doesn't seem to make much of a connection, doesn't rock their head too much but still the receiver looks severely dazed or is even knocked out? I know I have. These strikes have either conciously or unconciously been applied to pressure points - some of the ones I've seen are St5, the GB cluster on the forehead, the mental nerve just down from the corner of the mouth, TW17 etc.etc. All of which, if you are trained to deliver a straight cross or hook type punch, are easily accessible when fighting. When defending yourself, the beauty here is that if successful, you get to defend yourself twice - once from the creep you're fighting and once from your country's legal system. The creep cannot go to a police station and get his broken bones and blood stained shirt photographed, because none of that occured. As far as you were concerned you defended yourself by throwing a punch and the attacked 'feinted/passed out' etc. Of course what I'm describing here is the 'perfect' result of an encounter. As we all know perfection rarely occurs in everyday life, but in training for the worst, most violent, aggressive type of encounter and by looking to acheive some focus on what we are hitting and why, we can at least make SOME movement towards that ideal, rather than hope that you can 'out-punch' your adversary and cause enough damage that they give up, pass out or die. As for 'not requiring stength' - what I actually said was: 'requires very little strength'. Obviously all movement requires some strength, but when at a good level (which I'm not), these points can be accessed very delicately and with the right energy transfer and intention they seem to work fine - again, this is MY experience, take it or leave it. What I'm not saying is that you play pat-a-cake with an aggressive opponent, I know I wouldn't. But what I've seen is that older folks who have a good skill in this can do just as well with what strength they have. Also, all those wrist locks, leg locks, toe holds, throws etc. etc. seem to get easier and easier to apply when you know just where to torque, press or squeeze. By the way, I'm enjoying this discussion and have no wish to 'convert' anybody, I'm just sharing my ideas and more importantly my experiences. All I'm really saying is that if I throw out a hook punch to the jaw - it's going to ST5 every time and there's a reason for that.

bushido_man96 wrote: Well those adapted punches and kicks are the things that deliver the pressure point strikes. Most serious PP people may know 673 different points (exageration) but they have their favourites - maybe 5 or 10 - that they know they can access with a certain degree of success from many different situations. This leads into the figuring out what pressure points to use comment. Well, you don't figure it out, you just respond to what you're given - if his jaw's open, hit it, if his arm's grabbing you, grab it back....or hit it! etc.etc. Don't know who this guy is, so I can't really comment....but......touchless knockouts, hmm, they can be done - I can't do them, but as a pessimistic volunteer one day I had one done on me and I went out like a light. That's all I'm gonna say on that subject because I can't do them so don't have enough knowledge to offer. But one last thing, they DON'T NEED long setups, it can be done almost instantly. Just my ACTUAL experience, take it or leave it. Yes, but due to the fact that a lot of PP applications require very little stength to accomplish them, it means you can be 'effective' for longer. I have no experience to back up an argument either proving or disproving this statement so I'll say go to kyusho.com and check out their forum - there's a specific area for LEO's to post on. Many 'real world' experiences are shared there involving just the type of people you mentioned. They seem to have a lot of success.

Bushido-Man - respectfully, ALL techniques must be adpated for the circumstances and opponent. Would your tactics be the same against a tall person and a short person? How about a guy with 'power-lifter style' tree-trunk legs - would you try your low kicks on him or your leg locks?.... Even 'simple' punch or kick techniques must be used in the right way for different circumstances, not just pressure point techniques. The type of training that's mentioned on this thread of; first you get a thin guy then one with big arms...etc.etc. is exactly the type of training that will mean you have more knowledge of how the same technique - pressure point or otherwise - is applied to these types of people. Also I think someone else mentioned that they won't TRY to hit a pressure point - why not? If you're TRYING to land a hook punch why not aim it in the right place rather than 'hit and hope'? Why rely on speed and strength - what if your opponent is faster and stronger? How long do you think you will have your speed and strength? Look at it the other way round: If you aim for a pressure point with a tasty uppercut, if you miss the point you've still smacked them pretty good.......yes? Like I said before if all we reduce martial arts to is having a 'good strong [insert technique here]' - then in my opinion all you'd ever need to do is buy a punch bag and do some weights. What d'you guys think? Kam.

Pressure points are real and a valid addition to any martial arts study. "Hit fast, hit hard..." great for young, well built, fit individuals - but what about the 16 year old 80lb female or the 70+ year old man....? Since I was a nipper, a common theme communicated to me by various practitioners and teachers of martial arts has been that the arts allow: "the weak to overcome the strong" - or variations of that. How is that achievable if all we rely on is speed and strength? There will always be someone stronger and faster and there will always be the 'strong' trying to prey on the weak. In my opinion, without PP's martial arts just become a slug-fest - who hits who the hardest and the most times. Hundreds (or thousand) of years of study and research into the fighting arts reduced to trading punches....? Granted, PP's take skill to learn - so does a basic Karate/Wing Chun/Thai Boxing punch/kick.....whatever! Everything takes time to master. I bet the first time some of you stepped into your respective training halls, you looked at what the teacher was doing in there and thought "Damn, how will I every learn that?!" - no doubt since then you've learned an awful lot.....and been able to apply it for real (God forbid) and in competition. So if you train how you fight and fight how you train....yadda, yadda. Does a right hook to the jaw hurt? YES of course it does, but angle that same punch down and in towards Stomach 5 and bingo 7 or 8 times out of 10 that one punch will KO your opponent.

AAAGHGHHH!! ....have to chip in here - getting unusually miffed at the number of "In Aikido you have to wait for someone to run at you or grab a wrist before doing anything" etc. etc. type comments. Guys and gals (Aikido newbies and non Aikido students), just because Aikido kind of falls into the category of one of those 'path of least resistance' or 'use your attackers energy against them' type budo's it doesn't mean you have to wait for them to start beating the crap out of you (or attempt to) before you do anything! In most schools of Aikido there are numerous basic exercises designed to train pre-emptive movement in order to either a) incapacitate them or b) force a reflexive action with which to begin a manipulation....or whatever. Nuff said.

Samurai Shotokan - I study Aikido, it's my core art, been doing it for 9 years. Aikido has many different flavours these days; from soft and Ki/Chi centric to hard and competitive. This is mainly due to the Japanese concept of Shu-Ha-Ri which are the three stages of learning an art going from merely 'monkey see, monkey do' to making the art 'your own'. If you can find a good Aikido teacher, then it doesn't matter which of the afore-mentioned styles you learn, you will definitely get something out of it. But first - and this is mainly directed at tsdshep - I must clear up some misconceptions most non-Aikidoka (Aikido students) have about the art. There are strikes in all the stlyes of Aikido I have practiced. Or more accurately all the sensei I have trained under taught me to strike as part of the techniques. I believe I was taught that way as strikes are and absolutely integral part of Aikido - for tsdshep, please go a find a copy of 'Budo' by O-sensei (Ueshiba Morihei) and take a look on the passage on striking in the first couple of pages. Then you may also want to count the number of strikes you see O-sensei performing as part of his techniques. As for 'no aggression' - I have never been taught to be aggressive in any martial art I have studied - including Shotokan Karate and Wing Chun. I doubt there are many martial arts that do espouse 'aggression' as a valid mind-set for studying their art. Aggression is an emotional response due to stress or the like and is something that must be controlled - if possible - when in a physical altercation or you risk losing the fight. ....maybe tsdshep is refering to 'making the first move' or pre-emptive striking? If so - yes you can pre-emptively attack somone in Aikido when you are defending yourself. I now study Iwama-Ryu Aikido which was founded by a teacher called Saito Morihiro. He spent his entire adult life, from his late teens I believe, as - arguably - O-sensei's closest and longest serving, direct student (from 1946/47 to O-sensei's death). It was in the post-war period that O-Sensei started to call Aikido 'Aikido'! Saito sensei has vowed to transmit the Aikido that he was taught directly by O-Sensei as accurately as possible - and guess what, there are a whole set of techniques initiated by the defender (you) striking at your partners face to get him to react (block/defend) facilitating the move that you want to execute. As for being graceful, yes Aikido can be graceful - it can appear that way because at the higher levels (which I am NO-WHERE near) you are taght to completely blend with and re-direct your opponents energy. You appear to be effortless and relaxed, mean-while there are people bouncing off you in all directions - and thes Ukes are trained in Aikido Ukemi (the flips and rolls). But some of the other poster's here are right: there's nothing graceful about executing these techniques for real - as I have found out first hand. The strikes can hurt and break bones, the throms are dangerous, and the locks can do a lot of damage.

Thanks for the advice. One last clarification: I am an advocate of Chi/Ki and am not looking for a discussion on the nature or reality of it's existence. I am aware that there are several tried and tested 'standing stake' type methods for Chi development - I'm looking to learn some. One thing I'd like to know is has anyone tried the LKJ technique I described in my first post? Secondly can anyone offer another standing posture I could try (with direction) that is known as a good chi developer. Just for further information - I currently study Aikido and am looking into Kyusho-Jitsu at the moment, I was recently made aware of the possibility that the founder of Aikido practiced very specific Chi development exercises, that helped him develop his internal power. These techniques are not widely taught in Aikido schools so I'm looking to do some personal training.

OK, I guess what I'm really looking for is people who have practiced Lin Kong Jing (or something similar) to offer their opinions on it's effectiveness. Also I'm looking from other Chi Gung practitioners to offer their views on successful or valid postures for beginning standing on stake exercise.... Kam.

Hi, I'm new to this forum and just wanted some advice... Bought a book a while back by Paul Dong called Powerful Empty Force, or Lin Kong Jing. It was basically an introduction into standing meditiation postures with a view to building up martial Chi. One of the end results of this training was said to be an ability to project Chi to effect an opponent at distance. I wasn't too interested in that aspect, just in the standing postures themselves as i was led to believe that this type of training was excellent for Chi development in general, as well as posture, grounding, stances etc... I've since come across several articles on the net, in other forums etc... where Lin Kong Jing is trashed a little as a methodology and that the book itself that I bought may not be sufficient to even begin a study into standing postures and the like.... ....which leads me into the advice I need; Is Lin Kong Jing a viable method for Chi cultivation. Also the primary posture that is tought - Feet shoulder width, arms forward at a 45 degree angle, palms down (as if resting on a table mid-torso height) - is vastly different from the 'clutching a large beach-ball' posture that has been mentioned on this site several times. Thanks, Kam.