CQB

*sigh* well, these are the differences that I am comfortable explaining... HISTORY. They both were developed by different persons and went through their own evolutionary process to what we have today. TECHNIQUES. This is where we really differ from each other. From the krav videos I've seen and from speaking wiht my instructors I know for a fact we simply train in different techniques when addressing the same types of attacks. For example, I am aware that Krav deals with edged weapons defence differently than MD. They teach that when trapping the weapon-hand to grab at the wrist as it is the smallest part of that area and the easiest to take hold of. MD otoh teaches to grab the weapon-hand ITSELF thus preventing the attacker from transferring the weapon from one hand to the other. They also work the CLINCH differently than we do. There are many small but critical differences b/t our systems - enough differences that just by watching a Krav guy and a MD guy execute techniques you would be able to notice the differences. I know you were probably wanting mroe details with this comparison. Unfortunately, I am not a Krav expert. I only knwo what i researched during that phase in my journey when I was looking for a mroe practical system for SD. Krav definitely came up in my research. I simply ended up deciding to train in MD. As I said earlier, we're brother systems as far as I am concerned. Their *objectives* for dealing with street violence is pretty much on par with ours - more so than compared to other systems out there, TMA or MMA or otherwise. Hope that helps... be safe, CQB

Hey FightingSticks! no disrespect taken here! That's what thsi forum is for I believe - respectful exchange of ideas, opinions, etc... for the improvement and enlightenment of all. I trained for a brief time in Modern Arnis under Datu Shishir. This was before I trained in Pankration then Modern Defendo. Yes, this Filipino (I'm Flip myself) style is quite crafty and sneaky and dare i say, fancy. In the end I preferred the approach to street combat that MD takes. But I did learn alot while training in Mdrn Arnis as well. The more we learn the better, eh? Be safe, CQB

Krav is a military combative. Practioners train to be able to fend off a street assault. They use their hands and feet much like in Muay Thai (since we're comparing the two systems). They box, they use elbow strikes, knee strikes, low line round house kicks, etc. But... Krav also addresses weapons defences vs edged, blunt, and side arms... as well as multiple opponents... all with the STREET application in mind. MT can be used on the street - it has that side effect even though it is a (devestating) sport system. And if you train in hard core MT you WILL be training WITHIN their rules. No biting, no eye gouging, no pulling hair, no groin shots, etc. The original post explained his priority is street defence. Therefore I recommend he look into the Krav a little bit more. If it is a good school then he will be able to reap the benefits of a complete system that is geared for the application of his choice: the streets, instead of taking a great sport system like MT which CAN be used on the street but not really by design. Either way both systems will definitely compliment your BJJ. Just remember to fight dirty!! Be safe, CQB ps. those in the knwo would consider Modern Defendo (which is another military combative system) and Krav "brother" systems. They are NOT the same - not even close - but they share similar "intentions".

interesting posts. I had to reread the original post to understand the question being asked. Do I want to ever compete in MMA? No. MMA is a gruelling sport, a full contact sport, and one that requires extreme dedication to excel in. That being said, it's not the work ethic required that makes me not want to compete. I just prefer to put my efforts forth for genuine street training that's all. MMA training is hard, no doubt - I've done it. But there are rules the fighters are forced to train within. So they train to be as tough as possible WITHIN those rules. I think for a street application that limits their options since they train to fight within those rules to begin with. I've had many friends who fought on the street MMA style - nothing dirty, just intense MMA stuff, which usually does the trick. But then you get the guy who does MMA stuff WITH dirty stuff and while you're duking it out he grabs your nuts and pokes at your eyes as well - well you get quite the reality check! Case in point: one of our instructors was at a seminar by a well-known MMA fighter with the initials FS. He was very humble, and explained how he was naturally blessed to be able to excel in MMA, and that he wanted to share his knowledge and skills with others. Cool! Then he said that those people who train to poke people's eyes out, who train to bite, who train to break fingers and grab/strike people's groins.... THOSE people scare him. i liked that - he kept it real. no ego, just honesty. Could he handle himself? Of course! But I am always about the SYSTEM not the fighter. Please read on for further explanation. How often do I train? Not as much as I'd like to. Just got a baby girl - keeps the wife & me busy as hell! Train twice a week while teaching twice a week while working FT 5 days a week. Do I have mental issues? Probably. Last point (i promise, heheh) is it's also about the system. I like to look at it this way. Take two guys, identical guys, with NO PREVIOUS TRAINING, and with the same general personality traits. Just accept this please. Then, train one guy in system A, and the ohter in system B. Then train them for the same duration - 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, whatever. Then.... let them fight against the same BG on the street under the same circumstances. THEN... let's see which SYSTEM is more effective for the street. The fighter determines so much of the outcome of an altercation, this we alreayd know. But I want to learn about SYSTEMS that are superior for street situations. And to judge that I try not to get caught up with the tough guys who train in those systems, rather I try to see how the systems work in the first place for the average person. A good system should NOT rely on the fighTer being a tough guy in the first place - that should be a bonus, not a qualification. It's all about the actual TRAINING and METHODOLOGIES of a system AND THE APPLICATION it was designed for, that determines whether it will be successful on the streets or only in sport or both. just MHO. be safe, CQB

when i did pankration the sprawl was our bread & butter to counter a BG shooting in for a single/double leg tkdwn. i remember one incident where my opponent (this was in a dojo so not a street example) and he shot in wonderfully! Luckily I was able to sprawl, getting my legs & hips away from his, and forcing him downwards onto the mat. Then I helicoptered around him, got my hooks in, and sank in the standard rear choke. Point - CQB! on the street, if the same were to occur, i would still start with the sprawl. If successful with this counter to his attempted takedown, I woudl then move off centre line, posting off his head with one hand & arm, and give a quick knee strike to his head while he was still lying prone. Then I would have to decide if I want to either vacate or continue to attempt to gain control via standard arrest & control tactics, etc. My priority is to remain upright and not make this a grappling match. The street/pavement is not as forgiving as the mats back in the school..... be safe, CQB

heheheh. What a great thread this one is! It's 3am where I am and I read the entire thread do far!! Talk about passion, eh? Since I read the entire thing I feel I should at least add my own 2 cents, since I've gotten this far. I am assuming this is a street altercation. I dont know where this is taking place though - bar, school, home, etc. Depending on the circumstance I will strive to react accordingly AND appropriately without using excessive force. as to specifics, I agree with Cross's post on the very first page of posts. BG is swinging wildly. My startle response will have my hands & arms already up protecting my head. I will drive fwd and CLINCH for two main reasons: 1. stop his strikes 2. prevent him from drawing out a weapon Then while in teh clinch I will most likely go for an inside take down, initiated by a good old fashioned knee strike to the groin. Choice for take down will most likely be a palm strike to the chin or throat depending on my state of mind at the time. Once he hits the deck i will maintain control in a side straddle position to allow visibiltiy for secondary assailants, and can employ further control tactics such arm bars, finger locks, etc. I can also pat his waist line for a weapons check. If his buddies are heading my way I will take one more quick strike to the attacker's groin, throat, or eyes, then will high-tail it outta there as fast as my panic-stricken legs will carry me! *ahem* be safe, CQB

very interesting posts! I'm a-liking this place so far... It's great to read and communicate with other people who are as passionate about their training as you are. regarding the original question about whether there is a style or system that will prepare you to fight another martial artists, etc... (I "think" that was the question posed) I believe many here have already answered this adequately. Strike the grappler, grapple the striker, be better than the bad guy, dont let them know what you know... all great advice! As most here already know, real criminal violence happens suddenly with no warning. And the attack can be so vicious that you the defender will not have the opportunity to assess "Hmm what style is that? Ah! He is a boxer, so i will use kicks to keep him away or maybe i should take him to the ground...". rather, the fight is just ON! It's on and it's all out! It may be dark, STRIKES are being thrown, next thing you know you are CLINCHING, then even maybe one or both of you are on the GROUND (and not b/c of any particular skill, but more likely because of accident or fatigue or both), and at this point maybe a weapon has already been drawn and/or the attacker's friends have jumped in to assist. Wow. Remember: 10 seconds on the street can feel like 60 minutes in sport. So back to the question - is there a system that teaches people to learn to fight against other well-trained people? I believe there ARE systems out there that do just that. Some do it better than others. Do your research, ask questions, do the free-trial classes, and speak with the students! Dont rush into signing up for anything. If you do the grunt work you will find a style that is well rounded and one that will give you the skills to deal with the majority of what can happen on the streets. For a specific answer to your question, i humbly believe one of the systems that equip students better than most for real self defence is Modern Defendo. be safe, CQB

CK: tks for the compliments re: training at our school. You would be more than welcome there! I can appreciate what you are going through, deciding which school to train at. It's kind of exciting, researching schools - I enjoy that part of the journey, as I always learn a lot about not only the schools themselves, but also myself. I'm glad you know what you are looking for in the first place - that makes your research that much easier to conduct. There are many great schools out there that will more than meet our high demands - we just have to FIND them, which can sometimes be tricky, with all the bad schools out there that masquerade as good schools. So do your research, watch actual classes, do the free-trial classes, talk to the students & other instructors, and ask lots of questions. Dont rush into signing up until you feel comfortable with what you have learned. FYI - I think MTboxer meant to say he thinks you should train with teh school that "coaches pro fighters". ... and to answer your other question, I reside in Richmond, BC. be safe, CQB

I agree with you CapitalKarate - actual live training with an instructor is the ideal. Nothing beats being able to ask questions and to be shown first hand how to execute technique, etc by the instructor. But for times I am not able to train live with an instructor I am glad if I can get my hands on any instructional tapes available. It's not the best way to learn but it's perhaps better than not getting to see the technques, etc at all. Will just watching a tape(s) make someone an expert? No of course not. I believe everyone needs to train live in order to get proficient at SD - it's simply the nature of martial arts & self defence. We have to DO the techniques, and do them over & over again... not just WATCH them on TV. Is there a place for instructional videos in SD training? I believe there is - the videos can, at best, "assist" someone's training, but they cannot "replace" live training, no matter how good the videos are. be safe, CQB

heheh, thanks! keep it simple & savage = K.I.S.S. (of course there are several versions of this, like Keep It Simple Stupid, Keep It Strictly Simple, etc... but this is the one we use @ Wolfes more often over the others). be safe, CQB

my pleasure! I agree - we can learn more from someoen who actually trains in something rather than reading about it somewhere. Of course, we dont always have the luxury of speakign with someone who has first hand experience in something so the internet / book / magazine / etc are sometimes all we have to go on. Be safe, CQB

"... will that be enough to learn effective street self defense if I apply myself enough to it and study long enough?" from your question I see you are specifically wanting to learn effective methods for Street Self Defence. That's good - here we have a very specific APPLICATION for martial arts training that you are asking about. Do all martial arts training prepare a student for street self defence? IMHO that answer is no. Some systems and training methodologies are better suited for that application than other systems and their training methodologies. You will have to see for yourself which school trains best for the street application. Pls keep in mind that for training on the streets OF TODAY, I look for a number of things for the school to address: - no rules. There is no room for rules on the street. - aggressiveness, conditioning, and technique SPECIFICALLY designed for street self defence - modern scenario training. High intensity mock drills where you (the good guy) are going about your business (withdrawing $ from an ATM, taking a piss at the urinal, renting a movie at the local video store, etc) and a BG assaults you WITHOUT warning. - weapons training. To sincerely train students for the threats of today's streets a system MUST address weapons. No one fights fair. Rarely does anyone fight alone. And rarely does anyone fight without some type of equalizer (ie. weapon) which gives them a tactical advantage. - multiple assailants training. A good school wont tell you they can make you Segal! Rather they will tell you to RUN at the first opportunity, and if you cant get away, they shoudl go over tactics for addressing more than one adversary simultaneously. There are certainly more issues that need to be addressed, but these IMHO are some of the key issues I always advise my friends to look for when shopping around for a place to train. Good luck with your search - continue with your high regard for self and only settle for the best! Be safe, CQB

i agree with what everyone has already suggested to you. It is important to decide what application is important for you to be good at. Kata? Kumite? Street fighting? These apps are all different and require different skill sets, and require different types of training. IMHO, trophies and such dont matter to much to me. I'm too old for all that. I am only concerned with how I would fare in a genuine altercation on the street. Hence my training reflects that priority for that application. Success in genuine reality fighting (not MMA/UFC stuff) requires us to train to fight dirty, to be aggressive, and to be prepared to remove ourselves from the situation when the opportunity presents itself. Lose any ego we may have and get the job done. Saying someone trains in "martial arts" doesnt indicate which martial arts "application" that person is training for. Martial Arts has such depth and encompasses so many areas of training. Select YOUR area of priority and train accordingly. wanna kick butt on the streets? Lose the fancy stuff for now and keep it simple & savage. Good luck!

Hi! I'm a newbie on KF, and am glad to be here! Been lurking for a while and found lots of great info here! I just wanted to take this opportunity to respond to this post/thread re: Defendo, even though it appears to be an old thread. There were some questions about our system of Modern Defendo and I wanted to shed some light on things, in order to share as much information as I can with whomever is interested. I've been training in Modern Defendo for over 2 yrs now. I presently am the Head Instructor for our Children's and Teen's programs (gotta love kids although they can drive you crazy!). Before MD I trained in Pankration for a number of years. I enjoyed Pankration immensely! The kickboxing game with the grappling game. Brutal. Full contact. Great cardio training as well. (I'm sweating just thinking about it!). Then I started bouncing at a night club and working as a loss prevention officer part time. I quickly learned that my Pankration training was NOT very effective for dealing with ejecting unruly patrons, effecting arrests, etc. Pankration was great for sparring or all out brawling. But for gradually moving up the use-of-force model during an altercation, Pankration left me with little options because the Pankration I was training in was more suited for the application of sport (ie. sparring, tournament fighting, MMA, etc). The application I needed to quickly get good at (ie. bouncing/security & law enforcement) led me to Modern Defendo. Before I go into more detail of MD, I wanted to quickly comment on the *similarities* between Pankration/MMA styles and MD. I noted that another member remarked that from what he could tell, MD was basically like his Pankration. I think he said this to make the point that he believes his Pankration training *already* covers what he believes MD is about. And I can understand how he came to this conclusion since there are indeed many similarities b/t Pankration/MMA and Modern Defendo. Much to a lot of people's surprise, training in our style of MD resembles the training in a lot of MMA schools. We use kicking shields, focus pads, full contact, stand up & ground fighting, the whole nine yards. But pls note some of the following differences: a) No rules. None. Nada. So we train to fight what some would consider "dirty". But it's not the same as some untrained street fighter who fights dirty. Ours is a "calculated" dirty, if you will. b) We address the threats of weapons (stick, knife, sidearm). c) We do control tactics. Our origin stems from the military & law enforcement. Here we find a number of advantages - we go over how to quickly neutralize the bad guy (BG) and we also go over how to take CONTROL over the BG (ie. executing an arrest). d) We train for close quarters. The name is Modern Defendo CQB (close quarter battle). We recognize the majority of physical altercations on the street happen within an enclosed space - and NOT within a large open area like a dojo. Therefore our techniques and methods for dealing with violence does not include any fanciful kicking or punching, or any movement which requires more room than may be available. So picture the effectiveness & power of Pankration COMBINED with calculated street-wise tactics such as attacking vital targets (eyes, throat, groin), further enhanced with control tactics, all with the objective to take control over / neutralize the BG, ideally within 15 seconds or less. That is our goal. Any longer than that and Mr Murphy starts screwing with us... with multiple opponents, weapons, fatigue, etc. In MD we strive to remain on our feet instead of taking the fight to the ground on purpose. Even if we were great grapplers (which many of us are), we still want to remain on our feet while on the street - in order to make a get-away, and also to deal with the potential for multiple assailants, etc. In Pankration we did not address these issues simply because again, they were not relevant in the sport arena. Like I mentioned earlier, if you were to visit our school (http://www.Wolfes.ca) you might think you were in a MMA school at first. People are really surprised that our training looks very much like a kick boxing / grappling school, because they assumed we were one of those hokey self defence schools that practice "fantasy-based" self defence. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Our training is hard. Some say hard-core. Others say it's too military. Whatever. We also train to fight "from behind". On the street you will panic when ambushed or taken by surprise. It's natural. To simulate panic we "pre-fatigue" ourselves during training. We go balls-to-the-wall (ie. plyometrics, drills, etc) - sometimes until some of us want to puke - and THEN we start training in techniques, trying to perform while under these extreme pressures. Anyone can fight when they are ready for it and are expecting it - like in many martial arts classes. But on the street you will probably not be ready for the initial assault. Sometimes you are. Other times you are not. We train for the worse case scenario. Again, MD originated from a military and law enforcement background. The objective was to neutralize the BG quickly and efficiently. The Wolfe brothers (Bill and Dennis) then added their own take on things to the system and that is what we now know as Modern Defendo. So yes we cross-train. But not with a sports application in mind. We are always open to more efficient methods for street fighting. Like we tell our students, we did NOT invent the techniques - they were derived from various martial arts systems, etc. Rather we simply adopted what we believed was the best for a street application. Nothign more, nothing less. heheheh, yeah the name "Defendo" sounds.... different. But for those who are familiar with military jargon will actually recognize the term "defendo" and know that it refers to HTHC training. Are we similar to other combative systems like Krav? I believe we are similar in "intent". We all want the same outcome. We just differ in how we get the job done. It's all good. I hope I was able to answer some of your questions. Actually, I hope I made sense if at all. I am currently a little sleep deprived so pls forgive me if I tended to go off here & there. I want to finish off with this... I've noticed from several posts/threads on the Web, that people, after reviewing our website, believe our system is nothing more than "hype". I cant blame anyone for that actually - I will be the first to admit that for the uninformed, the wording on the site may make an experienced martial artist more than a little skeptical, as there are too many wanna-be martial arts scam artists that are simply trying to make a quick buck. For us (the IDF and Wolfes) we're simply trying to "market" our system to our target audience - the everyday person who has no desire to be the next UFC champion, but rather, wants to learn how to defend themselves and their family should the need arise - and we want to do this in the most honest & straight forward way possible. Some of you may have thought that we were trying to convince people that our system works like "magic" where we can easily take on ANYONE... AND... we can train the average person to do so as well - hence: hype. In actuality, we simply train our students, and we train them HARD. We tell them there's no such thing as a magic pill for self defence. It takes practice and sweat equity, and sometimes blood! To effectively fend off an attacker will take a high level of aggressiveness, superior technique, and appropriate conditioning from the Good Guy. No mystism, no bull. Just hard work through hard training. I firmly believe we are one of those good guys - we actually knwo what we are talking about, and more importantly, we are one of the few schools that actually teach something that works for the street, for real criminal violence. Ask anyone who has personally trained with either of the Wolfe brothers or at Wolfes. We're the real deal, and proud of it. And so I humbly ask that for those who may have passed judgement over us earlier, to please rethink your views. If you're from a school that: a) teaches what works, b) treats your students and the public with honesty & integrity, c) and enjoys making an honest living out of something we all have immense passion for (martial arts & self defence), then know that we may have more in common than you first realized. I will check on this thread to see if it spawned any new queries and such. Thanks for reading & be safe... CQB