ONE TROOF

Here is an example of a Seibukan (Sukunaihayashi) kata: http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/tc_videos.html (Go to the Zenpo Shimabukuro clip) With the exception of the sidekicks it is almost exactly like all the other Shorin Kusanku I've seen. Kyan O'Sensei learned a lot of his karate from Kosaku Matsumora. These Tomari versions were often wider and deeper stanced. He also learned directly from Sokon Matsumura, so many of his Matsumura Kata are very similar to the Kobayashi versions. As for the original kick seen in Pinan Shodan, it was always a front kick. There are very few instances where a side kick is used in kata, and if the version you're doing uses a sidekick where a front kick should be then you're doing a gendai variation or a version that is non-Matsumura or Itosu derived. Side kicks are less balanced and leave one side of your body pretty much ineffectual.

Really? What for? We had TSD folks there, Shito Ryu, Shotokan, TKD even Shuri Ryu. That's odd. Later. same old story of ray keller, 'Nuff said. Keller Sensei was there for Lindsey Sensei's promotion. He did Passai Dai (I think) and it looked pretty damn good.

I just wanted to add that I have met many great Goju-ka. As a ryu it is very strong as is evidenced from great teachers like Morio Higaonna. Most good Okinawan karate I've seen in the states was of the Naha-Te variety, whether Uechi Ryu or Goju Ryu. I have seen a few select Shorin people who were good, but they were few and far between. Goju Ryu has kept the ti element of karate intact. Their use of hojo undo equipment like Chi-ishi, earthen jars and the iron bo (as well as many others) will never die out. We do the same taining in my current dojo and find these aspects of karate training indispensable to doing sound Okinawan karate. Much respect to all the Goju Ryu practitioners out there. Bryan Cyr, Nidan, International Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu Association

Really? What for? We had TSD folks there, Shito Ryu, Shotokan, TKD even Shuri Ryu. That's odd. Later.

Okay Mr. Humble, let me help you out: "RYU RYU KO and KANRYO HIGAONNA: -The Chinese Roots- It was the Okinawan Kanryo Higaonna (1853-1915) who through his intensive studies in Fuzhou (Fujian, China) -in the period 1867-1881- laid the foundation of what later would become known as Goju-Ryu karate-do. Kanryo set sail for Fuzhou in the autumn of 1867, when he was 15, with the Ryukyu Kan, an area compromising a microcosm of Okinawan life, as his final destination. Kanpu Tanmei, the manager of his boarding house the Uchinayaru, learned about Kanryo's eagerness to study the Chinese martial arts and introduced him to the Chinese master Ryu Ryu Ko. There is still no consensus of opinion about Ryu Ryu Ko's exact identity nor about the exact martial art style which he taught. However it is widely believed that the family of Ryu Ryu Ko had originally been of the aristocratic class, and in those times only the aristocratic classes studied the martial arts. Ryu Ryu Ko studied at the southern Shaolin Temple in the mountains of Fujian Province. Due to the internal strife that threatened the feudal system and therefore the Chinese aristocracy, the family was forced to conceal their status in order to survive. For this reason Ryu Ryu Ko worked as a bricklayer and a builder. In later life he lived by making a variety of everyday goods such as baskets, furniture and other items from cane. This was the profession he was following when Kanryo Higaonna became his pupil. In the area Kanryo Higaonna disembarked, White Crane teachers were living and probably Ryu Ryu Ko was one of them. The White Crane (Bai He) genealogy of Fujian goes back to Fang Jiniang, the daughter of Fang Shiyu, who is said to have learned Monk Fist (Luohan Quan) during his stay in the southern Buddhist Fujian Shaolin Temple on the mountain Julianshan (Nine Lotus) near Fuzhou in the Puliang-district. Fang Jiniang, from Yongchun near Fuzhou, had also studied the defence- and attack-movements of the White Crane and became due to this the founder of the first generation White Crane masters. The second generation Yongchun White Crane Boxing grandmaster was Zeng Cishu, who was also a Black Tiger Boxing master. The White Crane tradition of the17th century Fujian became strongly influenced by Monk Fist and Tiger Boxing, and is probably the foundation on which Ryu Ryu Ko taught Kanryo Higaonna. The original Ancestral (Zong He Quan) or Trembling (Zhan He Quan) Crane style was later split into five main separate branches known as: Singing Crane, Sleeping Crane (Su He Quan), Flying Crane (Fei He Quan), Eating Crane (Shi He Quan) and Shouting Crane (Ming He Quan) and probably numerous sub-branches as well. However such was the devotion of Kanryo Higaonna that he eventually became Ryu Ryu Ko's uchi-deshi i.e. he received the inner teachings thus learning the whole system, as well as the study of weapons, and traditional Chinese medicine. It is not clear exactly which year Kanryo Higaonna began teaching the martial arts in Okinawa, but it is known that he did not begin teaching until a few years after his return from China. Kanryo first began teaching martial arts in his home in Nishishin-machi, but later taught also at the Naha Kuritsu Shogyo Koto Gakko (Naha Commercial High School) in September 1905. He had many notable students and eventually his most favourite student, Chojun Miyagi, succeeded him as the leading master of Naha-te." As you can see the roots of chinese chuan'fa that helped to give Goju Ryu its softer elements came originally from Higashionna Kanryo. It's true that Miyagi (as well as Mabuni, Soken, Shinken and others) trained with Gokenki, the tea merchant, in Bai He (White Crane), but these elements were already in Naha Te (as well as various other forms of Southern Chuan'fa). Miyagi later traveled to fuzhou to pay his respects to his teacher's teacher, Ru Ru Ko, and also took up some Tiger boxing. Hardly a circular or soft form of chuan'fa. Humility is one thing, not knowing the history of tode and claiming to be an Okinawan karate practitioner is one thing. Before you get froggy and jump on someone know your facts. The other hard training that is harmful? Too much emphasis on koteate and hard sparring (which is something that Miyagi implemented BTW). There's a reason most of the Goju guys die younger than usual for an Okinawan. That's it, with much modesty in mind... later. BTW P.A.L.: Did you attend Lindsey Sensei's May (annual) kata fest. If so who were you and what's your rank? Peace.

My bad Mr. Specific. The techs and strategem were Higashionna's though right? The term Goju was actually a result of a miscommunication between one of Miyagi's students and Japanese officials asking what his art was called, in which he replied "it's a half hard and half soft style". It was a term taken from the Bubishi. Miyagi rarely called what he did Goju Ryu. He would use the terms "Ti/Te" or Tode/Toudi". Want me to school you some more on your styles history? Miyagi didn't name shite, smart alleck. So you're wrong and I was right because Higashionna's system was inherited and watered down by Miyagi, no matter who offically named it (Dai Nippon Butokukai). C'mon you have to know more about Okinawan karate other than your own gendai budo history, fool. Reading Is Fundamental. Or do you just know how to utilize Sanchin to give yourself a stroke or an aneurysm? You do know that a lot of Goju training is harmful to your health, right? Critique me with your lack of knowledge some more please. Offer some real insight, not some lame * nit-picking. Everything I said was a synopsis but on point.

-------------------Major Okinawan styles of karate----------------------------- Shuri Te: Matsumura Orthodox Sui-Di (Shorin)- Sokon Matsumura's family style, passed from Nabe Matsumura to his nephew Hohan Soken. Based on the principles of Southern Shaolin Chuan Fa, Shihequan (Feeding Crane), Ti and Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu. Kobayashi Shorin Ryu- Based on principles from Southern Shaolin, Jigen Ryu and Ti. Minor Tomari-Te influence. Itsou Anko's derivative form of Matsumura's teachings. (Founder Anko Itosu) Shuri Te/Tomari Te: Shobayashi Shorin Ryu: A mix of orthodox Shuri Te and Tomari Te. Known for its kicking techniques. (Founder Chotoku Kyan, passed on to Eizo Shimabukuro) Shorinji Ryu: A derivative of Kyan's Shorin. Very similar to the original Shobayashi. (Founder Jyoen Nakazato) Sukunaihayashi (formerly Seibukan): Also a system which mirrors Kyan's teachings (Tomari Te + Shuri Te). (Founder Zenpo Shimabukuro) Naha Te: Ryuei Ryu- A hybrid of Ru Ru Ko's Chuan Fa (Kenpo) and Ti. (founder Kenri Nakaima) Goju Ryu- An amalgam of techs/kata from Southern Chuan Fa and Okinawan Ti. (Founder Kanryo Higashionna) Uechi Ryu- A newer style made up of Kinga No'on Chuan Fa (Pangai Noon in the Hogen dialect) and Ti. (Uechi Kanbun- founder) Others: Isshin Ryu: A mixture of Tomari Te/Shuri Te and Naha Te, with representative kata from each. Very upright, simple and mobile style. (Founder Tatsuo Shimabukuro) Shito Ryu- A system based on the principles of Shorin and Goju; most kata of each ryu are included. (Founder Kenwa Mabuni) Motobu Ryu Udun-Ti: Based upon Ti and Chin-na principles. The style of the royal court as taught to Choyu Motobu (founder) and passed on the Seikichi Uehara (recently passed away). Kobujutsu and Kobudo are also a part of each school's curriculum, originally taught as a separate art, but now part of the normal make-up of karate training in most Okinawan karate dojo.

How about I'm a warrior with thuggish tendencies.

Most karate IS a sport. Even many of you posting do a diluted form of karate. If they allow jiyu kumite in the Olympics it should be full contact with leg kicks, throws and submissions allowed. Something more like Shidokan or Okinawan karate BB free sparring. How will they judge a Matsumura Seito Shorin kata like Chinto versus a Shotokan variant like Hangetsu? I can't see how allowing all styles would work. IMO they should definitely include all the good Okinawan and Japanese Ryu. It'll just be the "Big Four" though. That's all people really know about. If it becomes "Olympicized" more folks will be attracted to the "sport" because that is what most dojo teach. Either that or some pale semblance of good karate. Later...

Yes, in moderation.

Hey man what are you doing here kin' (it's me MV). Your going to get some good responses here too. You know my take, but let me detail some of it for the unknowing. One thing I would like to add about Shuto with the bent thumb-- it's structurally weak. Forget the broken thumb thing, it won't happen unless your thumb is away from your hand. Keep it close in. Also what you might want to ask is "what part of the hand or arm makes contact with the target". I'd like to hear everyone's responses to that. Straight back leg in zenkutsu? First off if you use a long and wide zenkutsu for real fighting you're sunk. How hard are you gonna punch bone-on-bone? You should never lock your back leg. That's a schoolboy karate change for leg conditioning and has nothing to do with your gyakuzuki or whatever strike. Mobility and stance transition is much more imporatnt than telgraphed, point sparring reverse punches. Bend your knees, sit on your punches, that's what a real pugilist or striker understands as efficient and effective. If you are caught in a double-leg takedown your only avenue of escape may be to straighten that back leg and push down on the back of the head/neck/shoulder area. Otherwise, understand the dynamics of fighting and that any straightening of the legs leads to immobility and weak strikes. Good post, again.

Here's a good style to measure your Shodan testing by. I would suspect most dojo are nowhere as tough as this: Updated 4/26/2005 Shodan- Black Belt Test Requirements Physical Requirements (Minimum) 5 mile run, 500 sit-ups, 500 push-ups, 500 kicks (round, front, side, back) I. Be of Good Moral Character Understand and adhere to the traditions of Karate-Do teachings. Possess and display the moralities of Karate-Do. II. Karate Kotoba Written test of all previous language requirements, understand and be able to explain: Fudoshin Kime No Kokoro Mushin III. Kata with Speed, Power, Focus Kihon Kata Ippon Nihon Sanbon Fukyu Kata Dai Ichi Dai Ni Dai San Fukyu No Kata Naihanchi Kata Ichidan Nidan Sandan Pinan Shodan Nidan Sandan Yondan Godan Passai Sho Passai Dai Kusanku Sho Chinto IV. Bunkai For all Kihon, Fukyu, Taiyoku, Naihanchi, Pinan, and Passai Kata, and Kusanku Sho Kata V. Yotsu Kado No Renshu (Ichibanme - Nijubanme) VI. Te Waza from all previous tests VII. Geri Waza VIII. Te To Uke To Shi Waza IX. Empi Waza Dai Ichi & Dai Ni Plus Bunkai X. Shuto Waza & Bunkai XI. Ukemi Waza XII. All Kihon, Kaeshi, Jiyu, and Tanren Kumite XIII. Bag Work for Power, Speed, Technique XIV. Jiyu Kumite Close Pursuit All Hands (Plus chops and Elbows) All Kicks Combinations of Both Jamming Side Stepping Sweeping Counter Moves XV. Jumping Kicks Jumping Front Kick Flying Side Kick Jumping Spinning Round Kick Jumping Spinning Back Kick Jump Spinning Crescent Kick Jump Spinning Round Kick Jump Spinning Heel Kick XVI. Board Breaking (Evidence of Power) XVII. Grabbing Techniques XVIII. Attitude XIX. Free Fighting (1-1;2-1;3-1;4-1) XX. Self Defense Techniques Handed in one week before test 12 for Sodan 18 for Nidan 24 for Sandan XX. Written Tests (Selected Topics) Handed in two weeks before test Shodan - 10 pages Nidan - 12 pages Sandan - 15 pages Yondan - 20 pages Godan - 25 pages Rokudan - Karate Thesis - 100 pages ©2005, North American Shorin-Ryu Karate-do Association

Geneologically speaking, this could technically be called a Shorinkan dojo because of it's origins, but politically speaking, it isn't correct to call it one. I'm not going to go into all the details, but suffice it to say the head of the organization listed here is no longer in the Shorinkan organization... Yeah, Sensei Hargrove was a senior student of Nakazato, then went off to form his own org.. I don't know the reasons, but I do know that Hargrove is a very knowledgable and skilled martial artist. Just read his bio. Like Tadashi Yamashita's org., Hargrove's organization keeps with the standards and rigors of their original affiliation (Shorin Ryu Shorinkan). It's Kobayashi Ryu but it is not Shidokan influenced, it's Shorinkan influenced so for all intents and purposes it is Shorinkan. There are some kata omissions and changes, but the standards are similar. Are the standard at your dojo in Monterey that rigorous? The Shorinkan dojo I trained in on Clark AB, Philippines was (even moreso), so I thought they all were pretty much the same. Where are you in Monterey? I visit LA often and wouldn't mind checking your dojo out. I am currently a Matsumura Seito guy, but Shorinkan was my first ryuha. Later.

Here's the requirements for BB in a Kobayashi (Shorinkan) Shorin Ryu dojo out east. Is yours like theirs? http://www.usashorinryu.org/Curriculum/blackbelt.cfm

why would you block such a low kick when you can just move out of they way. The outcome is why. That's not necessarily a block, but a 45 degree shin strike. It's a 45 degree "deflection" of a 90 degree impact. Very good and natural physics. I don't think he thought about contacting shin to shin, he just did it reflexively, the best kind of reaction. Using the opponents momentum to increase the force of a strike or a hard block is a fundamental aspect of Okinawan karate too. A Goju stylist should just see that clip as an ideal defensive maneuver for that situation. Moving out of the way is a good option too, but this guys defense was very sound and effective. That's the 4th time I've seen a Muay Thai stylist or kickboxer break their shin trying to use those full force, baseball bat low shin kicks. Makes you think twice about shin kicking too much.