Shaolin

IMO The Cheung/Boztepe ‘fight’ is hardy relevant to Wing Chun since there was no Wing Chun to be found at least in the clips I saw. Boztepe’s cowardly attack clearly showed that he had no intention of really engaging Cheung. What was his true intent? Certainly not a true test of skill vs. skill - not combat. Overall a bad showing for WC and both 'masters' - a red herring to be sure for years to come.

No definetly not. Chi Sao (Sticking Hands) as I mentioned in my last post on this thread is much different. For starters Chi-Sao is not a series of pre-arranged movements: Chi Sao in Wing Chun is the key or core energy drill in Wing Chun. Two partners attempt to gain control of the other, by controlling the Centerline and the energy/balance of the other, spontaneously using contact stimuli - both arms and later the legs are also used. Chi -Sao represents 80%-90% of the training in most Wing Chun schools - this exercise is what brings the movements found in the forms to life and burns them into your brain and hands. In Chi-Sao almost all of Wing Chun's techniques and concepts are trained in response to contact. See my last post.

JerryLove I am sorry that you couldn't put all that intellect into a more productive discussion. You're ignoring the main point continuously and attacking around it. Wing Chun is a direct system. We do not play around for long before getting down to business. On the other hand it seems that you do. Much like your sparring tactics in, smack, out of range - that's great. How is it that I've answered your issue several times but you still keep ranting? Your issue was: Long guard no good. Very simple issue. Answer: There is no long guard. Very simple answer. The dynamic: You cannot accept the answer because someone you 'play with' did it the other way or because you just like to debate ad infinitum. Sorry but I can't control what your partners do or spend all my time trying to convey one single point, while you evade a simple message. Indeed discussing anything more complex with you must be slow torture. Again, it is clearly stated - if you look at the writings of at least some of the Grand Master's of the system that the 'long guard' is not recommended for initiating combat. It has other uses. Yip Chun states, 'Use the Long Guard for demos.' My Late Sifu did not recommend this long guard either in favor of a very short guard held close to the body. The reality is that when fighters fight the guard is dynamic and changing and oh so breif - not static. That said, many a young WC student probably uses a long guard out of inexperience or for the fact that most guys just aren’t as swift as you are to take advantage - so we get lazy. Cheers!

Haven't studied Eagle Claw but yes, I think it is a good system as the 'hard' styles go (I believe it is hard.) Although I wouldn't trade it for Wing Chun I think that is offers a very interesting and useful set of tools including strikes, nerve, limb destructions and locks along with a myriad of other tools - a cool system. The key for style sucsess is likely to be the same as in most Chinese arts find the best Sifu you can and check his/her lineage. I believe that Grandmaster Lily Lau is the rightful leader of the Eagle Claw system and she would be a good starting point for any sifu search: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=63 Also a history: http://home.pacbell.net/pbwriter/writing/eaglclaw.html Good luck, Jim

Oh well got nothing to do so I continue hopefully with some resolution in sight. Let's narrow the focus a bit. I don't know you and I don't know what your intentions are but it seems to me that you are arguing with fallacies in an attempt to simply continue to argue. "The problem with the posture remains" No, this is a fallacy. Why? Because all styles have some leading targets and because WC does not require a long lead. Some styles/fighters lead with the head - foot - fist. Even you - there will be some part of your body closer to the opponent than the rest of your body - like your lead leg/knee – hand/arm as you swipe at his hand or head if you plan to lean - whatever - it does not matter - all styles/fighters have one part of their body closer to the enemy at one time or another – I submit that given this fact this 'WC lead target posture issue' is null and void and getting old. Ever heard of beating a dead horse? The fact that a Wing Chun fighter's hand might be closer to you than the rest of his body is not worth 10 pages of discussion unless you are in it for the typing not the topic. Yes, if his hand is way out there it could be a target - so what - this is true for any fighter with any lead anything - that is 'out there' the point is it's not static and not going to stay in one place. If I tried to attack one of my elder senior's hands in his short but extended 'guard' there is no doubt in my mind that his fists would be in my face faster than I could say sh*t!! Regarding distance and motion: Even if the WC man has his hand way out there, you still have to move to HIM to attack it. You can't attack it from 6 feet away as you are so fond of pointing out. So you when you move in the other fighter will also do something - like: 1. Move his hand. 2. Move his body. Using your ‘logic’ I could simply say that every time you move into attack the lead hand the WC man will simply step back or to the side, angle in - etc. So what? Is it really worth discussing that for 3 days? (yawn) The most common reaction from a WC guy is not to step back but inside. If the WC guys you are playing with don't relentlessly attempt to close and get inside then they were not trained in the same kind of WC that I am. So, if you are moving in to attack some lead target and the WC man steps in the target has moved. If when you step to him he steps to you then whatever distance you planned to be at will have changed by his movement. Now, if you are 6 feet away and you step in to attack his lead target and in so doing you cover three feet and he didn't move you would be three feet away right? 6 - 3 = 3 If when you step in he also steps in three feet (intercept) he would be 0 feet away: 6 - 3 -3 = 0 The point is that there is no point. You must move to attack any target. The fact than the hand is closer means nothing because the whole equation is dynamic - You move - he moves - you adjust - he adjusts - you attack - he attacks. If you say that you are going to stay out of range and swipe at his lead hand then he can simply retract the hand and stand there waiting for you to close. Wing Chun is very distance sensitive - no one is going to shoot from 6 feet away - or at least few fighters will from any style - though some will try to kick you from here - we do not as a rule. Most WC men will do nothing from 6 feet away - at that distance most people are not yet a threat or candidate for an instant entry. At this distance he may present a short guard or a long one I really can't say - it's not a style requirement. He may start to move slowly away or slowly closer to you while changing angles and move his hands around with respect to the angle and distance and you. In any case if you wish to attack any target of his YOU must move to HIM. When you move in you will have momentum. Depending on the distance the WC man may not move at all or he may angle or he may step AT you - but by and large WC is like a coiled snake (hmm style influence?) slowly positioning - waiting to shoot out and bite you - 'shoot out' meaning hands and body together like the snake using it's coil (body) to generate speed. Likewise the snake could care less about his advanced target (head/fangs.) probably because it is also his weapon. BTW: If you think that the Wing Chun step is slow then I can only say that you are mistaken - it is not. When the WC guy moves in he will try to do it at a time most favorable to closing the gap - such as when you are already moving at him - in mid step you are committed and cannot change - do you understand that? (Reverse shift to Drive example you must stop first.) This is important. When stepping forward one has forward momentum. If you want to continue going forward or go forward FASTER it is easy to do since the body is already going forward - momentum. To change and/or go backward means time is lost because you must stop the momentum and then reverse it, or alter it which takes more time because you must brake and then overcome inertia AGAIN. (Not to mention mental state/intention/change issues) If you planned to take up a certain distance with your step and your target moves that distance is no longer correct for whatever you intended to do with it – be that an attack on a lead target or any other target. If you step planning a final distance of 3 feet and he moves simultaneously planning a final distance of 1 foot what is the final distance when you both complete the step? I would assert closer to the range the interceptor wanted not the aggressor - 'I move last but arrive first.' It's all in the distancing, but as you finally acknowledged it is harder to maintain distance than to close for the most part, which is what WC does. In a street situation (which is quite relevant despite your objection) there is no 'sparring' game being played out that has little value IMO for self-defense.

Firstly - this will likely be my last post in response to you in this thread as I have no more time to play these word games. I will address these final points just in case you are not merely a web warrior and are actually interested in this topic: Any art must move in to make contact be it a trapping type system or kicking or grappling. The ability of the fighters to control distance and use distance applies to any art. The idea that you can simply keep hitting a fighters hand(s) as he tries to hit you, move and keep backing away assumes much, not the least of which that you are a supreme master of distance control or that your partners are terrible at it and that you are 'sparring' in a large open area like an arena... In all my years of study I have never seen any martial artist successfully evade for the whole fight - this notion as far as I am concerned is absurd. The reality of the street makes such a tactic that much more absurd - when inside a building, subway, stairwell or alley one does not have the option of dancing around or continuously backing away - if you can then you had better just run away from the threat. Wing Chun assumes that there is someone trying to hurt you. In a real situation the street tough or mugger is not going to be seen dancing around or backing away - he will more likely be in your face - shoving - grabbing - punching - not dancing. Then your in trouble - it's like starting a race in reverse and then shifting into drive a half second later - you will need a FASTER car not an equal one. The problem with this notion is that fighter (A) will move FORWARD when you move forward - and intercept - that means your 6 ft target that you closed on just did the same - oops your in range now Since you (B) are already moving forward you will have to REVERSE your momentum in order to begin your 'run' - despite your twisted logic one cannot instantly reverse one's motion - unless your fighting me from inside your alien space craft. While you (B) is putting on the brakes fighter A is gaining speed and distance and attacking - if you can't acknowledge this hole in your theory then you are not speaking in real terms. In the movies. As most Wing Chun people I have had many 'situations' where I stepped in attacked and as I came into range the opponent back peddled - I have never seen one get away unless they turned and ran – usually they hit a wall or ran out of the ring but I usually caught them. The idea that one can move as fast backwards as another can forwards usually doesn't work in my experience - let alone the problem of generating power while back-peddling. If you are attacking a lead hand then of course you must realize that the lead hand can be fired as an intercept into your center with a step - which means the target had moved. I did try this a moment ago with a friend and when he stepped in to attack my lead I was able to shoot in and get close enough to hit him. Other times I hit his arm and worked off of it - but I am sure he doesn't have the mastery that you do. But it does not matter if the attack is short of the body - it is filling the Center - if your attacking limb is in the Center it will be hit - this may facilitate a bridge - nevertheless the attack continues in a fluid motion and distance closes. I personally have never seen anyone who could get away and stay away for long. If you say you can then god bless your high level mastery - most can't and a thug on the street isn't going to be running away he will be attacking - this is what Wing Chun was designed to deal with - agression. Nope, wrong again - if my fist is closed then you already lost that 3 inches so 6? There are even more (yawn) variables. Okay then forward movement does not come at you. Arighty then. Future WC students pay attention to this one. In the Centerline. As is listed on all my posts - I live in the NYC Metro area. It's actually about 2 inches higher than BB height - both hands close to the body aligned in the Center. Look around and you’ll probably find a picture, I don’t think this posture is that rare - oh the posture is done on Kim Yung Ma and there is also no lead leg - something the Muay Thai guys don't like. Good luck on the debating team and in your martial studies.

nt

Ad Homonym or not I would still like to hear what level you are and in what. Okay then so I am supposed to be applying pressure to something that isn't there? Talk about post hoc fallacies. Wing Chun uses forward energy. There is no physical pressure before contact. There is no energy used unless needed. The forward energy would begin in the form of a fist shooting at you. If there is an obstruction then we stick and there is your spring energy. I really don't think you understand what spring energy is as it relates to forward energy in the context of the system. An extended arm is an extended arm. There should be no tension in the arm only the energy required to maintain it's position/structure - this is true with or without contact. If there is contact than forward energy, spring energy, and all that good stuff comes into play. I am not qualified to address all possible uses of Man Sao. The point is that an initial 'ready position' means almost nothing in a fight. A starting position is just that - a position from which to start from. Wing Chun traditionally places the hands on the Centerline. Once in range the hand whatever position it is in would convert into an attack - the Man Sao isn't 'dropped' or 'for show' it is just there. Once the time is right is would typically change into a fist and be fired at you, although it could also change into any other tool should the need arise. What didn't you understand about structural efficiency? The hand is on the line and if advanced (extended out) has less of a distance to travel once it becomes a fist - if that is what it changes to. You seem to speak/think in static terms. The distance is always changing. What was 3 feet 2 tenths of a second ago may be 1 foot now. The distance at which you can hurt my lead hand/arm with a strike is not the same distance at which we can touch our fingertips together - it must be closer. If my lead is not fully extended - (by the way none of the WC people that I know fully extend a lead) - then the distance is even closer. If I am not side facing you then the distance is even smaller - if I feel that you are going to attack my lead I may bring it all the way in where are we now - 4 feet, 3.25 ? This seems a bit trivial to me but... In any case to attack my lead you must move to me and wow can my hand move fast - quite a target you've selected - a small fast moving target that is also a weapon - a few reasons we don't chase hands. When you move in to attack my lead hand any one of a dozen things can happen. In but one variant I could move in when you do - close the fist and fire - hey your target just moved AT your face! Am I worried about you hitting my fist now - not in the least - are you worried about your nose - maybe not, but there is more coming in the next 2 tenths of a second while your forward momentum is still bleeding off and I'm still closing on you and attacking your Center. If by some miracle you blast my lead attack away then my other hand will be right behind it - on the line - which your other hand has just left, etc. They are one and the same in context - the feet, hands and body can move as a unit. The KO I saw was done in one fast move of the body and fist shooting together - time to close and land over the 6 feet 0.3 seconds - what's your reaction time? Wing Chun starts a little closer than this. As I said an extended arm is not required. Typical entry is a small flank with a straight blast - not a statuesque pose that waits to be attacked. BTW: There was one time when I was playing around with one of my 'karate' freinds and knowing he was in trouble in close he threw a couple of 'flicks' at my lead hand. For whatever it's worth I changed immediately to a Mike Tyson like hand position with two fists .5 inch off my chest next to each other on the Centerline. This took care of that issue then.. but that was play - a streetfight rarely involves ins and outs with dancing around. In the hand position I described the lead fingertips are about 15 inches away from my belly button pointed at your center. If your reaching for my hand then I’m going for your head - is that clear? Not really sure if I understand 'look for a bridge' the bridge should be incidental as should the trap be – the only real objective is attacking the Center - everything else is happenstance. It's like this: In order for you to keep me at a range where my fist is your target (good luck) and your body is not a target for me you had better have a mastery of distance control that goes way beyond mine. It is much easier to close than it is to stop someone from closing - at least that is my experience (have you tried it in the Subway?) As I said I have no problem with you hitting my fist - that's contact and it will impart information to my hands during the shoot - at that moment I am just a hare's a$$ away from being where I want to be. Why don't you explain Wing Chun's history as a boxing style? Wing Chun is a hand to hand system one of the last Shaolin systems that was intended to be used against the existing Shaolin systems of the day to defeat the Manchus. Sheesh.

I must ask how you get springing / unbending from a hand which is not extended. Okay are you sure you know enough about Wing Chun to go here? Have you studied the system? What is your background? I mean are we going into a temporal comparison of limb energy states or what? My arm can only be a 'spring' when there is a load on it. At the range one outstretched hand can reach another, one cannot yet kick to the body. That said, what is the point of a fighting posture that you drop before the fight could possibly begin... Also, what guard would you chose to adopt instead. Don't get this at all. 'Point of a posture?' You answered your own question. A posture is just that - a position that exists for a split second - an initial position - the Man Sao places the hand close to the opponent so, for example, whatever weapon it turns into has less of a distance to travel. I can't hurt you with a Man Sao. Also, If our hands are in contact I can not only kick your groin but your head with my instep - wouldn't but could. At a much greater distance I have seen some non Wing Chun fighters END a fight with a lunging straight blast let alone a kick. Be careful making assumptions about range it all depends on the fighter(s) - there are no fixed distances - i.e. 3 feet = kicking, etc. It sounds like your talking about a distance where you are not in range to attack my arm, which is the range we were discussing. I cannot say I agree with "immediately attack" someone who is 6 feet away as a universal strategy. It is also not a strategy I have ever seen employed by either a Wing-Chin practitioner i have interacted with nor one in magazine articles. I am not aware of an attack WC uses from 1-2 steps out of kicking range. Wing Chun attacks when the distance and angle is correct. What do we mean by attack? An attack begins when I move to you or you to me or both - the entry phase. At 1-2 past kicking, what should you convert to. At 5 feet, an opponent with a knife who has not yet presented an opening, you reommend charging? The recommended guard, though this is a misnomer, is with both hands aligned on the Centerline, the closest a fist or so away from the body with fingers pointing ahead and the lead is the same except 'parked' right in front of the other. But again a 'guard; sounds like we wait - we do not. There are many variables to consider upon entry - distance - angle - state-of-mind of the enemy - number of enemies - a whole different thread - this topic was about your personal criticisms of the system and Man Sao. If you 'spar' with Wing Chun people then I must assume that they all have a tendency to 'shoot' Wing Chun men are trained for the inside and they go in ASAP - we do not need an 'opening' we only need a target. If our tool is 'blocked' we have a bridge and we stick and follow - if they move we face and re-attack. At the distance Man Sao would become a target for you, you would already be a target - that simple. 'The attacking hand defends'

Yes many do but here's the crux of this issue. 1. The lead need not be extended in a Man Sao there is no requirement. 2. If the opponent is close enough to attack a limb the Man Sao should already be gone. The extended Man Sao (Asking Hand) should only exist in a pre-engagement phase. If the opponent is close enough to be a threat the Wing Chun man should already be attacking – Man Sao should convert to something else - Wing Chun does not wait. An example of when a Man Sao might be applied is when fighting more than one person (yes this does happen.) If you take out the first opponent a Man Sao could be extended to clear and search your space for the next opponent or threat. Wing Chun is often a sightless system so the Man Sao may function as our eyes. Wing Chun does not assume that in the heat and flurry of battle one can easily see what is coming and react to it - it often must be felt and controlled. JerryLove: Please elaborate on the other issues you mentioned if possible. Jim

Perhaps because 90% of the time Tai-Chi is not taught in the context of, or for the purposes of combat. In many cases schools teaching Tai-Chi do not even teach the Push Hands aspect of the system. It is unfortunate but true that Tai-Chi was either intentionally or incidentally defanged over the years in China and elsewhere. Many Chinese I have spoken to directly have even denied (out of ignorance) that Tai-Chi was even intended to be used in combat, which is of course not so.

I think he's talking about Wing Chun... Be it in a quite vague and unsubstantiated manner. I guess he's a Silat guy.

Do some research to get a better understanding of these movements. I'll take the obscure Jao Sao. Jao Sao means 'Running Hand' It is a Wing Chun movement that works as follows: If you try to control the line and the opponent is much stronger that you - you may not be able to 'hold that line.' In this case you must 'run away' from this force and return to the line. The Jao is the running away from the force and is normally followed by a Jip Sao or 'Returning hand.' So in application: You try to control the line - his force pushes you off - your hand runs - (circles) around letting his force go and then retakes the line. HTH

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/ http://www.gungfu.freeserve.co.uk/

Yeah, I understand the point fighting problem. Although I haven't fought in a point fight in a long time my first thought is that if they are doing that annoying leg chambered hopping thing (if that is what you meant). I would try a full power Wing Chun front kick (toes out 45 degree heel contact) right at the Center, which is going to be I would think their chambered leg / hip - boom, with good contact he will land flat on his butt with that single leg hopping posture. It may not be a point but it will get a few laughs and will make them think at least twice before trying that one again - just watch out for the groin, which is often the most natural target for those goofy point techniques. Jim