Andrew_Patton

wow... not a person knows anything about one of these type of tournaments?

Hi all, I've been training shorin-ryu karate for the past eleven years and have competed in several of them pillow fight style tournaments, trained MMA and kickboxing and even ended up getting my sandan in Shorin-Ryu. I'm looking for more, I'd like to know if anyone has any info on Kyokushin tournaments in or around North West Indiana. I'm NOT part of Kyokushin-kai but feel like I need the experience for the fun of it. Just something I've always wanted to do

One of the things I'd love to point out is there was an early vale-tudo fight between gerard gordeu (the guy who fought Royce Gracie in the finals of UFC 1) and Yuki Nakai, a Japanese fighter, Gordeu gouged Nakai's eye leaving him blinded in that one eye, later losing it, and all that did is push Yuki into punishing him, until he finally submited him via rear naked choke IIRC. Gordeu also tried a simillar tactic against Royce in UFC1 upon being taken down, he gouged his eyes and bit his ear, hence the reason the choke was held for so long in that fight, it was an illegal tactic that Royce didn't like one bit

One of the bigger issues of XMA being around is that if I tell people that I teach karate, one of the responses I get from the younger people (20-25ish) is "oh you mean that gymnastic stuff on ESPN?" then they'll usually give me a laugh, etc. Also if you watch the beginning of the program when they're on TV they talk about the traditional forms having "thousands of years of training in them" or how they're the background of Martial arts training, etc etc, and how the competitors have amazing power and speed when they obviously lack form, and everyone seems to be only really good at "tricking" as they call it, while lacking in their base techniques.

yes, I was mistaken norris's trademark kick was a spin side-kick. but my point was back in the "good ole days" karate tournaments weren't as flashy and "pitter patter" as they are today, it was more basic and straightforward while being true to Karate's roots. And, I don't remember if it's been mentioned before BUT Ryoto Machida trains with Blackhouse in the UK, the new home of Vitor Belfort, so I no longer consider him a Karate-practitioner, he's a boxer/thai boxer now to be honest. And Inoki Ichihara of old UFC fame was a Nidan or Shodan at the time and was being billed as either 5th or 6th when he went into fight at UFC 2... At the time, I don't consider there being a great Karate practitioner in MMA fights, yet... that is to say, there's been good, but the "greats" either were to old at the time, OR are leading there own styles ala Matsui with kyokushin. On the other hand, Semmy Schilt, a higher student of Kyokushin has had one MMA fight IIRC, and was K-1 Grand Prix champ for a while there.

Thanks Ottman, that's really what I've been looking for is someone who's experience mirrors my own. I can't really stand all the bouncing, honestly, I've run over this former student of mine everytime I sparred and played the game how I like to, after my ACL tear and broken rib (seperated from cartilage) I sparred well, conservitively (okay crappy) and he took that as a sign of weekness, but whenever either was doing fine, I'd run over him like always, and to add insult to injury a 15-year old brown-belt of ours would blow thru him like it was nobody's business. Like I've said, it isn't my problem anymore, the school is doing much better without him, and I've had loads of experience with this "bounce step" (I used it on and off competing from white to blue belt, then got turned onto NOT using it and increased my speed and reaction times greatly) but have found nothing but negative side-effects from it. I swear it's just a toy with your opponent and try to get him to bounce also type of thing (like the side-ways bouncing in judo) or something... Sparring is no place for tricks, secret coaching techniques, etc. it just isn't.

Oh yes, of course, more contact and much tighter, you didn't see those guys doing half the bad habbits that our current karate tournament fighters have (lack of hip in punches, flashy techniques, being in the air to much) in fact, out of all those guys you mentioned, I've only seen one throw a spin kick, one time. Bill Wallace, and that was only AFTER a younger fighter threw that at him, he threw it just to show he could, other than that, they're all basic, straight-forward fighters with their own flavor that could take the right MMA fighters on the feet 9/10 times

because 90% of the karate tournaments today are either standing there punching each other in the chest or full-speed, over the top flick tag where two opponents hop wildly in the air and smack each other in the top of the head. Okay, I know I'm exagerating a little bit, but in my experience the vast majority of tournament karate goes similar (exageratedly simillar) to this and the majority of the participants do not want to get hit in the face. It's just a simple fact, when you don't like or are not used to getting hit flush and HARD you're not going to do well at something like MMA. On the other hand, I enjoy getting hit, and have amateur boxing, kickboxing and MMA fights under my belt. So not all karate-ists are this way.

oh yeah, let me tell you we were looking forward to letting him go If you look at all the combat sports out there and all the better fighters, none of them really bounce, they have their knees flexed and their heels off the floor... there are exceptions, notably savate guys, but they work backwards from everyone else (hands secondary weapons, feet primary) and that's simply not the way kickboxing, boxing and karate work, so unless you're a savate guy, or want to point-spar for a $5 trophy... it's a detriment IMHO

Honestly, like I said earlier, every one of our instructors has "been there, done that" we all have learned, taught, and utilized this motion, found it lacking, and if asked (which we were by this student) taught it. Also, like I had said, two of our instructors (one recently, and one ages ago) have beaten both the "world champion" and the guy he's currently training with. But, this student, months before his father left the orginization started to get one heck of an attitude, and was going to be asked to not come back the next time he came to class due to an incident he had with our senior most instructor. No skin off our backs, I was just wondering what everyone's fascination with this type of movement, and what any of your reactions to it are.

Honestly, it isn't bouncing like you would learn in boxing or footwork like in kyokushin (up on toes, heels off the floor, light footed) it's an actual bounce, like both feet leave the floor type of bouncing, and apparently all the tournament fighters out there use it. The funny thing is, that none of the instructors at our school use it or advocate it's use, it only has draw-backs for us; delayed timing, can only attack at certain points of the bounce motion, easier to get swept, hard to move backwards, etc. And, none of us can see the point of it. The student left shortly after he went to a local seminar with an instructor (some guy who's supposedly won hundreds of point sparring tournaments "back in the day" and is impossible to score on) advocated it immensely, the guy isn't a super-man or anything IMHO, as my dad has sparred him "back in the day" and went down only by a point or two. Anyways, I digress, it's a bounce that is only usefull for point sparring, not for power generation, or anything. And I'm just wondering, what's the fascination with it? Whatever happened to the student that wanted to hit like a ton of bricks?

technically speaking, the breaking of a 2x2 is a parlor trick, yet it actually is a difficult parlor trick to reproduce. The typical old school way to do iron body training is just with the instructor (or helper) striking the other student with open handed strikes, punches, and kicks. Iron body training in Karate also consists of regular training with the makiwara, and other training devices (ishi sashi, nigiri game, tetsu-geta, etc.) And should only be done in the watching eye of a competant instructor. Which is a bit hard to find because most people only believe in doing kata, or sparring and neglecting a very vital part of their training.

Hate to be a stickler for accuracy, but IIRC strikes to now illegal areas of the body were begining to be eliminated by UFC 10 or so, and were all but gone far before Zuffa took over, in addition, gloves, rounds, time limits and weight classes, along with the entire rule-list, 10-point must judging, etc. were all in place before Zuffa took over, the "Zuffa saves the day" mindset when it comes to the UFC is a myth, created by Dana White and the brass over at Zuffa. SEG was working with the Athletic commisions over a year before Dana White and Co. took over the company.

Recently we had a student, who was one of our better point/tournament fighters quit to go practice with someone who practiced what he and his father (one of our former instructors) called a bounce step. This is basically little hops continuously throughout a sparring session, that are supposed to be able to make it harder for your opponent to predict your movements, they also couple this bouncing with moves that have gotten a bum rap in our family such as the "running backfist" I have found only a bit of a detriment with this methodoligy, messing up my timing, making it easier to get "scored" on easier to get swept. I'm wondering what if any benefits. and detriments there are to this in anyones opinion. Thank you

Whenever I teach something I like to play the percentages. Lets say if I have a 2% chance of performing the lock in question, if the grab/punch is at the correct level, if the strike is on the right side of my body, etc, etc. Then the fact that I have to maintain a grip on my opponent, namely on the wrist, then factor in the opponent jerking away from my hold, you have something that looks kind of iffy in the percentages department. And, yes, I garantee there are movements that look like or act like judo movements, but you wont find a text-book judo movement in your kata, or a perfect muay thai, jujutsu or wrestling move in there. You might have a modified "karate version" but the chances of finding something complex and from the other side of the world in Kata is hit and miss. Karate has throws, takedowns, trips, joint locks, etc. but they are their own beast. Created by Karate-ka thru the ages and put in our kata. Remember one thing, if your imi (intent/movemet) doesn't match your kata movements (body placement, hip rotation, stance, power generation) then you are doing something incorrectly.