kickcatcher

from: http://www.jtpowlette.com/about_tang_soo_do.html Is there any credible link betweenm TSD and whatever the Koreans were doing in 36AD?

??? No, many karate schools don't use the "double hip" nor similar "S-wave" mechanics. Power chains vary from school to school in Karate and are often varied dependant on the stance being employed. At the extremes, schools which emphasise Hangatsu dachi (Half-moon or pigeon-toed stances, also found in many Southern Chinese styles from whence they came) have very short/subtle hip motions (sometimes coming close to their "short fist" cousins) whereas other schools which emphasise long Zengatsu Dachi (front/forward stance in TKD) often have very long hip actions. "although the proper position for a formal chamber in TSD is not the hip but with the forearm parallel with the ground and fist in the middle of the rib cage" Likewise for many karate 'styles'. Maybe they knicked it from TSD? The 'hip' chamber (or various hieghts and orientations) can be found in several 'groups' of kung fu. It appears most emphasised in the early 1900s onwards as cross-pollenation increased -as for it appearing in Shaolin... well it isn't in any of the ancient wall painting postures... but then what is Shaolin and what isn't??? So many arts want to call themselves that. Karate is clearly derived from a mix of Southern Chinese Chuan fa. The hip chamber is common to both groups so can reasonably be said to have come from Chuan fa to karate.... and it seems from there to TSD/TKD(?).

The hands, feet and sometimes elbows?

Just curious, something someone said on another thread which I thought deserved a new thread. I've done a few years of Karate training with/in several styles. I've also done a few years of TKD, again mixing widely with different groups. I couldn’t detect any meaningful difference. Obviously, exact mechanics vary greatly between sub-styles/orgs/clubs, and there are extreme variations… but by and large there is a significant common thread throughout. Add to that the habit of chambering the punch from the hip … is it at all likely that the TKD/TSD methods derived from a source other than karate. I’d be curious to think what people think the differences are. And from there, trying to work out whether the diversion is post 1950s… or because of older Korean methods. Some TKD clubs have an absolutely appalling ‘form’ of punching –with shoulders high, wrist misaligned etc –but I put that down to poor instruction and lack of meaningful face punching in training/sparring, facilitating the erosion of form. But then again some ITF offshoots have adopted a more boxing like guard and punching engine (although I’ve yet to see any of these groups rival boxing for efficiency). But this diversion took place in the 1990s(?) and was more a reaction to kickboxing, along with people asking themselves “Why put the hand on the hip???”. Some of the same ITF offshoots went down the road of following through with ‘pure’ form backfists, lateral chops and blocks… more closely resembling some kung fus. And their patterns consequently appear more kung fu like –but again, this is a relatively recent diversion. It is also something I’m seeing less of –the same ‘innovators’ seem to be shifting towards kickboxing, RBSD and MMA.

so you're saying that it's a good way to train to miss?

I can’t see it myself. Whilst the rest of the world uses sharp metal attached to long sticks (such as the Billhook and Kwan Do)…. It would be interesting to hear if anyone’s ever pressure tested the credibility of this ‘history’. http://www.psbba.com/Mr.%20Wall%20flying%20Kick%202%20edit%205-03.jpg -v- http://protein.biochem.queensu.ca/~dlee/San9/maltz/school/figure/armor_han_cavalry.jpg

What % of these styles pre 1950s heritage is actually ‘Korean’? TaeKwonDo –allegedly based on TeaKyon but actually Japanese Karate repackaged as Korean? Tang Soo Do – Anything meaningfully Korean? Hapkido – actually just repackaged Jujitsu with some karate added? Kuk Sool Won – Kung Fu? HwarangDo - ????? Surely not actually related to what the Hwarang Warriors actually did? Yudo – no prize for guessing here… What % of the Korean arts originates in pre-1930s Korean martial Arts?

Thanks for all the answers guys. Re Timing in 1-step drills So you develop timing IF the attacker is un-telegraphed in their attack (? –that’s what people seem to be saying). So you have to time the block (/evasion etc). But because the attacker leaves the strike out and doesn’t actively defend, you’re not developing any timing on your counter attacks. And since you know what the attack is, then timing is easier because you don’t have to guess what defence to use (it’s all scripted). It seems very limited for developing timing –especially when compared to alternative non-compliant drills. So do the compliant 1-step drills, such as originally shown in the original post develop credible timing attributes?

In what way do they help timing? If the attacker is going to attack in a pre-arranged way and then stand there... um, like a lemon... what is there to time?

Agreed. It is irrisponsible because, unlike say guns, it is easy to practice and do by accident -fortunately the people who talk about this kind of stuff usually don't have a clue (regardless of how scientific they appear) so not too much gets out.

Thanks for taking it in the right spirit. Hands up who's doner those types of drill.... me for one. Not now I dictate my own training mind. But they are part and parcel with many clubs/orgs -even styles (dare I say it).

http://usera.imagecave.com/armchairstrategist/fw-compliant.jpg I hope that this cartoon is taken in the spirit is was intended.

Or are they too asbstract to really be benefical? http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/sid-t3-1.jpg

where did you hear that?

I forgot to add... http://tinypic.com/ft2z4

Angela, I don't think PPs cut the mustard. By my way of reckoning having them as the top 5% of Sd is an admition of their lack of utility and therefore you have to ask yourself why have them at all -clearly the other 95% covers what works. How to test PPs application: Get one RBSD nutter to act the role of street aggressor. Get one PP 'expert'. Task the RBSD guy with beating the PP guy by KO (TKO etc). Task the PP guy with winning the fight using the PPs. Blow the whistle and call the ambulance. Now I know where my money would be. Normally PP guys try to decry such a test using one of two premis: 1. They are too deadly. If so then they aren't scalable so how o they fit within SD? 2. They aren't designed to be used alone so to limit the PP guy to just PPs is not representative. ...so if the PP guy won without PPs what would that prove? And at any rate such a line is an admition that they ain't effective on their own -which brings us back to the other (more useful) 95%..... So to summerise, PPs are either too deadly and/or auxillary. In either case, they ain't worth the bother.

1st rule of SD: If you are going to hit someone, make sure that you hit them bloody hard! Other tips include pre-emption and not taking your eyes of the attacker -although this becomes near on impossible if there is more than one adversary.

Where in Canada? I have one contact there who could assist you if by fluke you are in the same area. Alturnatively there is a strong Canadian prescence on Cyberkwoon forum although I cannot vouch for their credibility -though at least one is a respected reality guy -though not a fan of MMA IIRC. In MMA/grappling people base out when you clinch because they know what you're about. On the street or against people untrained in grappling, this is less of a problem. Simple clinch move: Snap down and guillotine. When their legs start to fail them let go and raise knee.... taken from Andy Davis, MMAist and former Bouncer.

I'm actually a fan of some of the clinches you've mentioned. The merits are relative to the opponent. Generally speaking street opponents won't try to counter in the same way as an MMA partner might. From the Thai clinch, snap-downs are very useful for the street (not ever done it myself in the street but Dave T advocates it within its context). I like the arm-wrap type clinch -albeit only momentarily. Where are you -if you're in London (UK) I'm only too happy to get involved in well thought out pressure testing

I agree with the original post, right down to the generalisation that 90% (I'd say 95%) of what is taugfht won't work on the street.

Sevenstar's original points were on track IMO, whether or not everyone agreed with him. Before a fight or confrontation you'll probably feel anyticipatory (slow release) adrenaline. This can affect your voice, make you tremble etc and so, by implication undermine your confidence in the task ahead. Moments before they attack uyou or as they do, you will probably experience a 'dump' (fast release) of adrenaline. If you are not accustomed you might 'freeze' and at any rate, your heartbeat rises so suddenly that fine motors skills (those pretty wrist locks and pressure points?) go out of the winfdow and you get tunnel vision. After the event you will experience a continued slow release -often my voice goes funny even when I've 'won' the encounter. You may even cry a bit. So all in all Adrenaline is a really big issue re self-defence. But don't take my word for it, look up Geoff Thompson's book: Dead or Alive. It covers it in some depth with a very practical slant to it. For the record, I've been in nasty situations and 'frozen' due to adrenaline dump. And I've had tunnel vision at the worst times etc. I'm not proud of that but hopefully people won't make the same mistakes -false sense of security in SD training, that I previously made. Take care, AS

tip for poor kicker: punch opponent in face.

Hi, I'm just curious what approach people take.... When someone comes at you with a blade, which general approach do you use? -to simplify things I've divided the general approaches into three main groups which I think covers about everything I've ever seen. 1. Deflect and counter An example might be: http://www.sdtactics.com.au/images/KM%20Book/Knife%20Attack.jpg 2. Intercept and seek a wrist control for a lock -either for strike or takedown (etc), such as in: http://www.feelmoresecure.com/image_manager/cherie3.jpg 3. Or seek an arm-wrap for elbow control of the weapon arm (with follow-up etc): http://www.thepraesidiumgroup.com/newsimages/Knife2_IMG.JPG SThe pictures are only representative. I'm more interested in your general approach rather than gnit-picking the pictures.[/img]

sorry mate, with the name Str33t guy I just assumed you were into reality-based self-defence. betterthan having someone else's foot in there

erronious double post, please delete