cleung
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Personal Information
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Martial Art(s)
Kung Fu, Wushu, Free Style Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing
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Location
Montreal, Canada
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cleung's Achievements
Orange Belt (3/10)
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. Once martial arts competitors and coaches decide to follow one of the large karate circuits like NASKA or NBL, it will soon be realized that participation in this sport can be very expensive. Many years ago, I attended a seminar conducted by Charlie Lee and he said that the only main difference between many national and local competitors is that the national ones have the funds to travel. I’ve been on both the NBL and NASKA circuits. I’ve also dabbled in international overseas competition as well so I’ve learned a few tricks over the years to help save some overall costs involved in competition. Competition Fees Most Karate tournaments offer some savings through pre-registrations. With many promoters adding online registration capabilities recently, pre-registering is a snap. Of course, there’s the risk of losing your entire fee if for some reason you don’t show up at the event. Even if you have made commitments to attend certain tournaments, other circumstances can prevent you from going. For example, I have missed tournaments due to flight cancellations because of bad weather. It is also possible for flights to be delayed or missed due to reasons beyond your control. Of course, unforeseen emergencies at home can always cause trip cancellations. So even though one can save some good money over the course of a year by pre-registering for all events, it is a risk to take. Hotels Most tournament promoters also work out special room rates at designated tournament hotels. These special rates usually range from about $100 to $125 which are quite good considering that most event hotels are top major chains like Hyatt, Sheraton, Hilton, etc. However, I have found that if one is willing to do some research, even more significant savings are possible with accommodations. I almost never stay at event hotels anymore. Instead, I will do research to find out hotels that are close by. Yahoo! Maps is wonderful for this. At their site, enter the address and city of the tournament hotel. Do a search of other hotels close by and the site will show you where they are on a map as well as how far they are from the event hotel. I also use travel websites like Travelocity and Expedia to verify other nearby hotels. Many hotels are often much less expensive - especially the ones that are one level lower in quality. In addition to the travel websites, I would also check room rates directly with Choice Hotels (Comfort Inn, Econolodge, Quality Inn), Holiday Inn, Days Inn and Motel 6 via their websites. The rooms at these chains are not as luxurious as those at major hotels but they are clean and comfortable. They are not the bottom of the barrel like some independent motels are. Rates can be 50% lower than even the tournament rates at the event hotels. My average rate for rooms has been about $50 and that often includes free breakfasts which event hotels seldom offer. Many lower priced hotels are within walking distance of the tournaments. Even if a hotel is not within walking distance, a small cab fare is usually worth the room savings. I’ve even stayed at airport location hotels and then utilized the free hotel shuttles of both the place I was staying at as well as the event hotel to get around. Of course, all this is not as convenient as staying at the event hotel but if you are willing to plan ahead a bit, good savings are possible. Of course, for events where I’m extending my stay for vacation purposes, a rental car will allow me to stay wherever I want. Another way to chop off half of your hotel expenses is to leave right after your competition is over. You will miss the evening shows but if you don’t mind that, then you will have to stay overnight for only a single night rather than two. Over the course of a year, single night trips can result in significant savings. Flights Driving would be the most economical way to travel to tournaments but if the locations are too far, then flying would be the most realistic way to get there. One could also explore trains, too. As for flights, one could wait for seat sales to purchase tickets. Another strategy is to fly in or out of different airports that are nearby the event city. There could be significant savings in prices for flights if you are willing to use alternative airports. Some cities have more than one major airport in the region. Alternative airports can reduce travel costs for competitors who have to cross the U.S./Canadian border as well. Canadians driving to U.S. airports right across the border could save up to 50% sometimes for flights. Travelers should join all frequent flyer programs but try to stay with one or two main airlines if possible. Points do add up which can result in future free flights. Of course, points from hotel stays, car rentals and credit card use also help. Transfers As mentioned previously, I try to use free hotel shuttles whenever I can. If my hotel doesn’t have a free shuttle and it is close to the event hotel, sometimes I would take the event hotel’s free shuttle and then walk to my hotel. I often use the event hotel’s shuttle to catch a ride back to the airport, too. Many cities where large tournaments are held have very efficient and safe transit systems right from the airport. For example, instead of paying for cabs or airport shuttles that charge, taking the local bus or subway train for about $1.50 will get me to the tournament just as easy. So as you can see, there are different ways to take a bite off the overall expenses of Karate and martial arts tournament travel. You just have to do your research for every trip. As for meals, you could always stuff yourself silly for a very reasonable price at those Chinese buffets found almost everywhere.
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Well, remember there's more to martial arts and weapons than just pure combative techniques. Both of my videos you can all see online are the present weapons I use for both fitness and forms competition.
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Why not take up weapons as you get older? I find them quite fun and much less demanding on my joints (as long as I don't clobber myself with them that is).
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One of the main differences in my forms these days is that I no longer do jumps. Also, due to the ACL surgeries I've had, I no longer hold out my kicks since I have some problems straightening out my legs all the way. However, my circular kicks are still okay.
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. Besides rocks, one of the most basic of all weapons throughout mankind's history across most cultures has been the long wooden stick. This makes sense since sticks were always readily available in the forests or could be easily made. The Asian martial arts took the long wooden staff into an art form as many martial art styles include the long staff in their systems. Some styles even have traditional weapons forms or katas featuring the long staff. Some systems of martial arts train with weapons such as the staff through practical techniques only without the use of set forms. Unlike many martial art weapons such as swords, knives, kamas and sais, which are short range, staffs are long range weapons with superior reach. This enables the user to attack and defend from a distance which can be frustrating from the point of view of an opponent who has a short range weapon. Long range weapons are also useful in keeping multiple opponents out of reach, too. Of course, long weapons such as the staff cannot be easily concealed like short range weapons so they can be cumbersome to carry around. One of the most popular martial arts weapons from the Japanese Karate styles is the bo. Even today, the bo is usually the first weapon taught at Karate schools and is the most common weapon seen at tournaments. The bo staff comes in different variations. There are heavy bo staffs which resemble thick poles which are considered more traditional and there are lighter versions which are tapered at both ends. There are also multi-sided bo staffs such as octagonal but these are much less common than the usual round, circular versions. Although there are one handed swings, most bo techniques involve both hands holding the weapon. Various strikes and blocks can be performed with either end of the bo as well as the sides and middle. Bo users take advantage of the entire weapon as techniques can be executed with any part of the bo. For the majority of techniques involving the bo, the user holds the staff near the middle with both ends protruding out equally. Traditionally, the lead hand (furthest away from the body) has been the right hand. Contemporary weapons forms competitions have caused the bo to evolve where competitors now use extremely lightweight bo's and some even have reflective finishes giving a more flashy visual appearance when the user is performing a bo form. Unlike traditional bo forms, contemporary creative open forms with the bo involve more complex spins and even tosses. Some martial artists do not consider some of the modern bo forms observed in the competition circuits to be true weapons forms as some competitors emphasize too much baton like twirling action rather than actual combative techniques. It could very well be a matter of personal taste. This is why in most of the large open martial arts tournaments, weapons divisions are split into traditional and creative. Chinese Kung Fu styles also utilize the long staff although there are some differences in techniques when compared to Japanese Karate styles. Instead of holding the weapon in the middle most of the time like a bo is held, Chinese staffs are usually held near one end which has the effect of elongating the weapon even more. Traditionally, the lead hand is the left hand with the right holding the bottom end of the staff. However, there are techniques which involve switching sides as well as using the bottom end to strike, too. In addition to strikes executed while holding the weapon with both hands, there are more single handed techniques with Chinese staffs than with Japanese bo staffs. Like their empty hand Kung Fu forms, Chinese staff forms have more circular, swinging techniques than in Japanese Karate styles. Contemporary Wushu forms use a much lighter weapon than in traditional Kung Fu staff forms. Wushu stylists also use staffs or cudgels that are made of a unique white wax wood from trees that are grown only in China. Staffs made of this type of wood are not made with precision like Japanese bo's. The Wushu staffs are naturally tapered with a thicker bottom and thinner top. The white wax wood is extremely resilient as users of this type of Chinese staff perform techniques which involve smashing the entire weapon on the floor at full force. Korean Kuk Sul Won also has the long staff in their system and the techniques used are like a blend of Chinese and Japanese moves. Although all martial arts styles that utilize weaponry have more complex and possibly more impressive looking weapons, the long staff has remained to be a favorite for many martial artists.
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. For many people, especially those who are not familiar with martial arts, the question often arises on what the difference between Karate and Kung Fu is. Upon watching somebody doing martial arts, the untrained eye will find it hard to tell whether that person is doing Karate or Kung Fu. Even those who are beginning martial arts may sometimes be confused about the different styles until further exposure to them will reveal just how different they really are. Historically, the people living in the islands of Okinawa just south of Japan got exposed to Chinese Kung Fu martial arts due to the close proximity to China. Over time, the Okinawans and Japanese developed their own styles of martial arts, now known as Karate, from the original influence of Chinese Kung Fu. Although both Karate and Kung Fu utilize many similar martial arts techniques, most Kung Fu styles will usually have more variety of techniques compared to Karate systems. It’s almost like the Japanese streamlined the number of techniques from Chinese systems to develop Karate. The Japanese also modified the way techniques are executed in Karate as they became more linear compared to Kung Fu. This is especially evident in the forms or katas (traditional sequence of set moves) where Karate techniques are performed with crisp movements that have distinct stop and go motions. In Kung Fu forms, movements involve the use of more circular techniques, particularly with the hands. These circular motions give Kung Fu forms a more visually graceful look as techniques seem to flow from one to another. There is less stop and go with most Kung Fu styles. This is why some martial artists, especially in North America, often refer to Chinese Kung Fu as a “soft” style while Karate and Tae Kwon Do are “hard” styles. This is not to say that hard styles such as Karate or Tae Kwon Do are more powerful martial arts than Kung Fu and other soft styles. The term “soft” is a bit misleading because the power from circular Kung Fu moves is often hidden. Circular moves can generate just as much power as linear ones found in hard styles. Most Kung Fu forms are also usually more complex and longer in duration than most Karate forms. To most martial artists, a Kung Fu form will look much more exotic while a Karate form will look more straight forward in terms of martial arts techniques. Interestingly enough, there are Karate styles such as Goju which do have quite a lot of circular techniques similar to Kung Fu. Kempo styles are considered a hybrid of Chinese Kung Fu and Okinawan Karate techniques with both circular as well as linear techniques. There are also many more different styles of Kung Fu compared to Karate. Martial arts weaponry is found in both Kung Fu and Karate styles but different sets of weapons are utilized in each martial arts system. Much like the empty hand forms, the kata with Karate weapons are also more linear compared to those with Kung Fu weapons which have more circular movements. As expected, there is a lot more variety of different Chinese Kung Fu weapons than found in the Japanese Karate styles. Traditionally, practitioners of Karate wear a white uniform called a gi which features the overlapping kimono-like top. Less traditional schools like those in North America will allow colored uniforms. A colored belt will be the finishing touch to the gi with of course the black belt for those at instructor level ranking. Most of the time and especially inside a dojo studio, Karate stylists will not wear any shoes while training. Most Kung Fu stylists will wear a very different looking uniform. Kung Fu uniforms usually consist of tops with Chinese “frog-style” buttons rather than overlapping fronts like the Karate gi top. The uniforms can be black or a variety of colors with often lighter fabrics such as satin and shoes being commonly worn. The modern acrobatic Chinese martial arts of Wushu can feature satin uniforms with many different bright colors. Many Kung Fu schools simply utilize t-shirts and baggy pants as uniforms. Satin colored sashes are often worn to signify rank of students but this is actually more of a North American style as most Kung Fu schools in Asia do not show rankings in uniforms. Overall, there’s more variety of techniques, styles, weapons and uniforms found in the Chinese Kung Fu systems compared to Karate. However, that is not to say that one system or style of martial art is superior to another. They are just different and to the observer, it could come down to personal preference. Some prefer Kung Fu and some prefer Karate. Some ambitious martial artists who desire a full well rounded education practice both Kung Fu and Karate.
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Thanks so much. Actually, I would consider Kevin Thompson sort of quasi-traditional.
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Actually, I do quite well against younger competitors for traditional divisions as well as soft style. However, if it's an open creative division where tricks and gymnastics are allowed, I might as well not compete. Fortunately, in the NASKA division I compete in, there are 40 and over divisions. In some other events, it's 35 and older. Too bad there are no senior divisions for soft style (Chinese) forms and weapons.
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That's true. I did do a bo release toss and catch at some competitions. Dropped it at two events. I can still clean up my basic moves so there's work to be done there. What I'm finding is that in our seniors divisions, somebody like Kevin Thompson has no real fancy or risky moves but his form is just so solid and powerful. Nobody has been able to beat him this year and I've only managed to tie him once.
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Thanks for the tips. I do have a soft style form with my 3 section. Unfortunately, most judges in NASKA are hard style. I know the overhead move with the open hand. Looks great but too risky for my seniors group.
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. There are opportunities in martial arts training to learn to use various martial arts weapons. Many martial arts schools, especially those that teach Japanese Karate and Chinese Kung Fu styles have weaponry as part of their overall curriculum. Popular weapons from karate systems include the bo staff, kama, sai, sword, nunchaku and tonfa. Chinese Kung Fu styles have broadsword, 3 section staff, kwan do, whip chain and butterfly knives as well as their own versions of staff. Of course, there are many other types of weapons in martial arts but the above are the more common ones taught. Some of the more exotic weapons include the fan, rope dart and the hook swords. Martial arts weapons can be divided into short and long range. An example of a short range weapon would be a pair of sai. The bo staff would be a long range weapon because of the longer reach. Weapons can also be divided into bladed and non-bladed. Kamas and swords, of course, would be bladed weapons where staffs and nunchakus would be non-bladed. In most training situations with bladed weapons, the blades are not live. That is, the blades of swords and kamas are blunt rather than sharp. This adds to the safety aspect of martial arts weapons training. Weapons can also come in different weights from heavy traditional models down to ultra light weight versions for forms competition. Martial arts weapons are considered as extensions of a martial artist’s own body. For example, strikes with a weapon are really extended hand strikes. Blocks with weapons are modeled after traditional martial art blocking techniques. Therefore, it is important for martial arts students to be relatively proficient with martial arts techniques using their own bodies first before learning to use any martial arts weapon. This will help the students understand the applications behind each weapons technique much better. In most Japanese Karate schools, weapons training won’t be offered until students reach an intermediate level such as green or blue belt. There are martial arts that are strictly weapons oriented. An example is Japanese Kendo which is modeled after samarai sword fighting. Philipino Arnis is stick fighting which was developed in the South Pacific islands. There are many benefits in training with martial arts weapons. Because most weapons have some weight to them, their use will help develop muscle tone and strength. Performing forms or katas with weapons will also develop coordination. In today’s world, martial arts weapons may not be as practical as the days of the past when it was acceptable to carry weapons wherever one traveled. However, with some understanding of weapons techniques, a martial artist today can turn almost any household item such as an umbrella, cane or even a set of keys into weapons of self defense if required. Another important point that shouldn’t be ignored is that most practitioners will claim that training with martial arts weapons is a lot of fun. However, not all martial arts clubs and studios will teach weapons. Many Tae Kwon Do schools, for example, do not include weapons in their overall training. This is not to say that Korean martial arts do not have weapons. The Korean martial art Kuk Sool Won features the staff, sword and cane. So, if a martial arts student wishes to learn the use of weapons, a school that includes them in their training should be sought after. Another alternative for students who are otherwise happy with their martial arts club that doesn’t have weapons training is to get supplementary private instruction from instructors who can provide it. Weapons training can open up a whole new dimension to overall martial arts training. Even advanced Tai Chi practitioners use swords in some of their forms. It doesn’t matter if sometimes the swords are made entirely of wood either since the actual weapons techniques will still be used in the forms. For many martial arts competitors, weapons forms are their favorite divisions to compete in. From a spectator point of view, weapons forms can be very exciting to watch especially when weapons such as whip chains or kamas with strings are used since their presentations are so dynamic and even somewhat dangerous to the user. Such weapons have caused injuries to users when certain techniques were sloppy or mistimed. But, like other aspects of martial arts, proficiency with a martial art weapon after much hard training can bring a high sense of satisfaction to a martial artist.
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. Sometimes one would see references to “hard” style and “soft” style martial arts. To many non martial artists, these terms may be puzzling. In North America, these terms are used to classify martial art styles into two main categories. Japanese/Okinawan Karate and Korean Tae Kwon Do are generally referred to as hard styles. Movements in both Karate and Tae Kwon Do are often linear with their forms (traditional sequence of set moves) performed with crisp movements. Chinese Kung Fu styles are usually referred to as soft styles. The circular motions of Kung Fu forms give them a more visually graceful or softer appearance especially when many of the movements flow from one to another. Even Korean Kuk Sool Won which is sometimes referred to as “Korean Kung Fu”, is often classified as a soft style since its movements are also more flowing than the stop and go of Tae Kwon Do or Karate. This is not to say that hard styles such as Karate or Tae Kwon Do are more powerful martial arts than Kung Fu and other soft styles. The term “soft” is a bit misleading because the power that comes from circular Kung Fu moves is often hidden. Circular moves can generate just as much power as linear ones. The terms hard style and soft style came as a result of the evolution of North American martial arts competitions, particularly in forms divisions. For many years, open Karate tournaments which allowed all martial arts styles, had competitors from different martial arts backgrounds compete in the same forms divisions. All equivalent level competitors, whether they used a Japanese/Okinawan Karate kata, a Korean Tae Kwon Do pattern or a Chinese Kung Fu form, competed together in the same divisions. This provided a nice martial arts showcase for spectators especially at the bigger tournaments. However, some competitors and judges considered divisions with combined styles to be too complicated. For example, judges who were familiar with only Japanese or Korean styles had a difficult time scoring competitors performing Chinese Kung Fu forms. Sometimes competitors from different martial art styles felt that judges were being biased against them. Judging a hard style form against a soft style form was often like trying to compare apples to oranges. To help resolve these issues, many of the larger martial arts tournaments expanded to have separate divisions for hard and soft styles. This was a way to equalize things and add some more fairness to all competitors. The largest tournaments went another step ahead and further separated Japanese Karate stylists from Korean Tae Kwon Do stylists by putting them into different divisions, too. Many top open tournaments in North America have even created separate divisions for hard style and soft style martial arts weapons competitors. Hard style weapons will usually include such Japanese weapons as bo, kama, tonfa, sai and samarai sword. Soft style weapons include the wide range of Chinese Kung Fu weapons such as broadsword, staff, kwan do, butterfly knives and three section staff. This still left many Kempo stylists up in the air because their particular forms have both hard and soft style elements since their movements are both linear as well as circular. Some promoters of large tournaments decided to accommodate Kempo stylists by adding in separate forms divisions just for their style as well. Of course, many smaller local tournaments have not been able to offer separate hard and soft style divisions for martial arts forms competitors mainly because of financial budget restrictions. The terms hard style and soft style are used only in North America and parts of Europe since these are the only regions of the world that have open martial arts competitions. Martial arts competitions in other parts of the world such as Asia are generally restricted to certain specific styles only. Traditional Karate tournaments allow only Karate competitors. The same goes for traditional Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu tournaments.
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This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. To reap the best benefits from martial arts, they should be taken as long term activities rather than short term. Given this suggestion, one should not just simply walk into the closest martial arts studio and sign up right away without doing some research. Not all martial arts are alike and not all schools or studios are alike either. Therefore, it is important to really think about what your own needs are with respect to martial arts training. The discussion of which martial art style to take is too extensive for this article, so what I will say here is that there are differences in the various styles of martial arts which may result in some being more suitable for certain individuals compared to others. Do some research on the different styles and do visit the classes of different studios that teach different martial arts if possible. But, more important is each individual school's approach to teaching their martial arts. Many martial arts schools teach only techniques and forms (set routines) that are specific to a traditional style. These schools follow the ways that the original founders of each martial art style developed and they have continued with minimal variance over the years. Other studios like to borrow techniques from a variety of martial art disciplines and integrate a mix into their programs. Some schools are non traditional and adopt a more open free style system which incorporates traditional martial art techniques with gymnastics and open choreography of forms. There are many clubs that do both traditional and open styles. Each school will claim that their martial art style and method of teaching is superior to others. Prospective students must not take these claims too seriously and choose an approach that would be best suited for them on an individual basis. Many advertisements for martial arts schools push the backgrounds of their higher ranking instructors as a way to attract students. It is important to realize that the more degrees (or dans) a particular black belt has don't always mean that the individual is a better instructor. This is the same with instructors who have very successful competition records. There is no correlation to the number of world championship titles won with how good an instructor is. The term "master" should also be taken with caution. A master doesn't always make an excellent instructor. The teaching style of different instructors can vary. Some use the old Asian masters' approach where discipline is strictly enforced much like in the military. While general discipline is actually a good attribute to learn from martial arts training, some of the old ways of teaching, particularly reprimanding students vocally or physically for incorrect techniques may be considered a bit harsh for today's society. This is why it is important to watch classes of prospective martial arts schools you are interested in. You want to see the teaching style of an instructor to determine if it's a style that would be compatible with you or not. Ask questions after instructors have finished teaching. If you have the gut feeling that certain instructors will not be right for you, move on to find another club. Most legitimate schools will allow prospective students to witness or even try out a class for free before joining. Related to teaching styles, some instructors emphasize safety more than others. The use of protective equipment and certain rules while sparring are factors. In addition to asking instructors, also ask other students about injury rates and their general feedback about the classes (ideally when they are outside of their schools). Another point on the students is that some schools attract a certain type of student profile. Observe the other students and decide whether these are people you would like to train with. Some schools are very much into competition with active encouragement of students to participate in tournaments. In fact, some schools even make this a requirement in order to advance through the different levels. Other schools have been known to restrict competition only within a particular circuit. For example, many Tae Know Do clubs only participate in tournaments that are strictly Olympic style Tae Kwon Do and never go to events that are open to all martial arts styles. There are schools in the complete opposite end where they do not believe in competition at all and pretty well keep to themselves without any interaction with other martial arts clubs. Many Chinese Kung Fu clubs do not compete and some styles of martial arts such as Aikido do not offer any competitive outlet. Many martial arts schools choose to have a relaxed position towards competition where they leave it up to individual students to choose whether they want to participate in tournaments or not. Some schools have special competition teams where additional training is available for those students who wish to compete. So as a prospective student, you should consider what involvement you would like in competition if any. If you know that you never want to compete, you should not get locked into a school that requires tournament competition. If you have a desire for competition, don't join a studio that shuns competition. Some martial arts schools teach in community centers, school gyms and even church basements. Some have bare bones studios with outdated equipment. Some schools have the latest martial arts and fitness equipment with sparkling clean change rooms and facilities. All of these will factor into the membership fee of each school. You have to determine what you are willing to pay for and what type of environment you will feel comfortable training in. Many schools require annual contracts while some are on a month to month basis. There could be initiation fees. There could also be testing or grading fees for advancement. All of these extra costs will add up. Ask what happens if you have to freeze your membership due to extended illness or injury. If one doesn't really know whether martial arts is an activity for them in the long run, the option of taking short term courses such as those offered by community centers may be a viable alternative to making a full commitment to a dedicated martial arts club with its own studio space. But do be aware that although martial arts can be very enjoyable from the first day you put on a uniform, it is a long term activity and one must have patience in order to benefit the most from martial arts. Fortunately, there are many options in the form of different martial art styles and schools to choose from in the market today. Just make sure that you do some preliminary research before committing to any particular club.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I am able to do a few extreme moves such as a release as well as hand rolls but they look slow enough that even I was able to determine that they should be left out of my bo form. Also, I have missed the bo 1-2 times in competition while attempting releases so for me, the move is too high risk. In the senior divisions, it appears that my bo form is as creative-extreme as it gets compared to other competitors' forms. So I'm pretty happy with the level of creativity in the form as it's now a matter of making some adjustments or even deletions of parts that don't seem to sit well with people.
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Thanks for the compliment. I have yet to be asked for my documents to prove my age in divisions. I know that I look relatively young but if I'm side by side with some of the 20 something year olds doing their forms, that's when I really feel my advanced age.