Thx for the replies all. Well I've visited the Karate club which is a Shotokan style, I didn't get to see any of the older black belt students because they trained the day b4 I came. The instructor is a 4th degree Black Belt who is a student of one of Canada's best, I forgot her name. He's an older guy but uh he looks kinda weak, this may be the biggest mistake I've ever made by saying that but he doesn't seem as strong ast the TKD master I met. The Karate instructer told me of some blocking techniques you dont learn until brown belt which he teaches early on and he also took TKD and Judo which he incorperates into his teaching. As for the TKD gym the instructor is pretty impressive, very friendly pictures all over the wall and championships, its W.T.F. style, he also teaches some street fighting and kick boxing in his class alonside the TKD. He is also a 4th and 4th in Canada I think. Has two daughters who are also black belts in TKD. The Karate doesn't require a contract so I can try that first as some of you suggested, then the TKD and make my decision. But from what I've heard the Shotokan will be better of for defending myself. The TKD instructer comes back on monday, they are training in the woods up north so I'll ask how far he goes into kick boxing before I make any real decisions. From what I've heard I'd prolly chose the Karate gym but the instructer worries me. I was expecting something very serious I guess, someone very direct but not rude. There are other Shotokan gyms in my area so I'll check those aswell. EIDT: The TKD instructor Dane Williams is a 13 time O.T.A. Champion and is the Canadian Lightweight Champion. Does that count for anything?