I-Self

Lindsey's knowledge, skill, know-how and refinement are higher now than at any other time in his life. Every lesson with him is phenomenal. He is completely dedicated to preserving Soken's, Kise's and Kuda's original teachings. Sensei Lindsey still has a memorial with Kuda Shinshii's picture set up in his dojo. He is quite reverent of him, even after he had stepped down as president of Kuda's worldwide Matsumura Kenpo organization. I think that Ron felt that the Kenpo form of Seito was straying a bit from it's Seito roots and becoming more and more like Okinawan Kenpo. I know he didn't like the business of some Okinawan sensei giving out rank just because someone got them lunch or something. Whatever the reason for the falling out, he never speaks ill of Kuda, which is more than I can say about his opinion of other masters (not based on their knowledge or skill but their intent and recent actions). I'm just here to inform and it's good to see all the traditionalists on this site, Japanese, Okinawan or otherwise. To you Okinawan style "MMAs" types I say good training! After all Okinawan tode was definitely one of the first MMAs. Peace...

George Dillman was a good Japanese style karate-ka- Shito Ryu I think. He didn't know any real Okinawan karate, but he was looking for a slant a new way to make some dubloons ($$$). He attended an Oyata Sensei seminar to learn more about Ryukyuan Kempo. He realized that the Shito kata he learned didn't have a firm grasp of bunkai, and especially of the ti techniques (Oyata calls them "tuite"). He learned some of the Okinawan Kenpo principles, then he sought out one of the most knowledgeable and venerated karate shinshii on Okinawa, Hohan Soken. He met him and Kise through a senior student of theirs, James Coffman. They really only met briefly and never exchanged any info or techs. Later he sought out Ron Lindsey Sensei, also a senior student of Kise, Kuda, Kinjo, Takaya and GM Soken. From this meeting he got a hold of "Fusei kise's PP Notes" which he later changed to "Hohan Soken's Secret Notes". Well they were originally from Soken, but Kise had them translated in English when Lindsey Sensei was president of Kise's Kenshinkan org in the 80s. He trained with Lindsey for like a few days. Then was never seen again. Next thing you know he's the number one authority on the hidden bunkai in kata and kyushojutsu. Ridiculous and criminal. Guys like Coffman and Lindsey have been doing Matsumura Orthodox Shorin for decades. Someone like Lindsey makes little off the karate he teaches, and lives a very humble existence in Bastrop, Texas. Not only is Dillman spreading false ideas based on real ones (which he never knew), but he is stealing the soul of traditional Okinawan karate, a rapidly dying species of MAs. These things that Dillman wanted to learn, but never did, take years and years of hard work, partner drills, breaking up the individual movements of kata, practicing on a resisting partner and most of all massive repetition of the purest forms of kata using correct biomechanics and real science. All that aside the reason I know this stuff is because Sensei Ron Lindsey is my teacher, and every Matsumura Seito person who is serious gets that same copy of "Fusei Kise's PP Notes". There really is nothing to them, and they are a version of the "Bronze Man" statue talked about in the "Bubishi". Here's something interesting for you folks who think that people just like "hating". Most real MAs types don't. They just hate to see what they do misrepresented then commercialized to extinction. This is taken from Sensei Jimmy Coffman's SMOKA site. Enjoy: From someone that was there when Dillman met Soken: http://www.smoka-usa.com/ On June 26, 2002 I called George Dillman. (During the conversation George's wife Kim was also on the phone.) During our conversation I asked George why he claims or claimed to have studied under Kise and Soken, when I know for a fact that he had never studied under either one of these Great Masters. George stated that he never has claimed to have been a student or studied under either Kise or Soken, but he did have a three hour private lesson with Soken right after the tournament was over. (1972 Pa.) George than stated that he had received a private three hour lesson from Grand Master Honan Soken, in Shoken's hotel room. That he would do a kata than Soken would do one. They each did three kata. George stated that what impressed him the most was that Soken did not even break a sweat during or after completing his kata's. George than went on to say that Kise had never impressed him. Ok, so here we have another story from George Dillman making claims that he thinks can not be verified or will not be questioned. What is wrong with these statements made by George Dillman? 1st. There where no eye witness's other than Soken, Kise and George. Very convenient. However Kim (George's wife) says that she and some of their students waited in their hotel room for George to finish his class or meeting or whatever with Soken/Kise, before the long drive home. Now Sensei Soken as we all know has passed away. So that leaves Sensei Kise and George. Now we know what George is claiming. But why does Sensei Kise state that this private lesson never happened. When I have asked Kise several times. Kise says: “Dillman never had a private lesson with either of them, Soken or Kise.” 2nd. Why would a Grand Master like Honan Soken grant a private lesson to a man that he has never trained, seen nor met before this date. Answer: “he would not have” 3rd. As we (all of those that were there) know Master Soken became sick during his stay before the tournament and Soken had to leave for Okinawa within a couple of days. Another question: Why would a sick Grand Master give a unknown a private lesson when in fact he was sick. Answer: “He would not have” 4th. Why would Soken do kata for George Dil lman in the first place? Answer: “He would not have” If you went up to Soken or any Grand Master, and asked him to do a kata for you, Would he? ..... NO 5th. Why would doing six katas, three by Dillman, three by Soken take three hours. Answer: “It would not” 6th. Again why would a Grand Master get up and do kata for a nobody when he had his Protegee “Fusei Kise” beside him at all times. Answer: “He would not have” We all know that if in fact any katas were done they would have been done by Kise, Sokens top student, not by Soken. Kise says it did not happen. 7th. My real question (to George) is this: Could George have gotten his story mixed up from the meeting that Soken, Kise, Jim Coffman, George Dillman, Bob Peters and a couple of others had, in Grand Masters Sokens hotel room, After the tournament? This was where Kise/Soken was giving out weapons as gifts, that they had brought from Okinawa. I picked a set of Sai. George was given a set of Tonfa. Do you think George has this meeting mixed up with his fantasy dream? As to the Four mentioned people that are making false claims as to "Grand Master Hohan Soken" they are the weakest link. "George Dillman, Glenn Premru, Tom Hunnicutt, Charles Garrett" George Dillman: Never studied under or with Grand Master Hohan Soken or Master Fusei Kise. FACT New! - Glen Premru "Do ya think he just wants me to go away yet? Sensei Coffman, you may feel free to use any of this on your weakest link page and feel free to quote me as you like." -Rick Glen Premru: Never met Soken or Kise before 1972, and never was promoted to the rank of JU-DAN BY SENSEI SOKEN. FACT This a response by Sensei James Coffman to the information on the Okinawa Karate Federation Web Page by Glen Premru. RESPONSE Tom Hunnicutt: It is my belief that Tom Hunnicutt never really trained under Soken, based upon his karate, and that he made up his system as he states. FACT Charles Garrett: Is nothing more than a 2nd Degree or 3rd Degree (at best) under the Matsumura Seito system of Hohan Soken. FACT Raymond Gonthier: Ray never studied with or under Grand Master "Hohan Soken". FACT However, Charles Garrett is the closest of the four that actually trained with Sensei Soken. You probably want to go back HERE Web address: Dillman: https://www.dillman.com Premru: https://www.okf1956.com Hunnicutt: https://www.geocities.com/colosseum/bench/6102 Garrett: Search: okinawan karate Charles Garrett Disclaimer: Comments stated on this page and throughout the website are mine alone, James H. Coffman.

I started out in Shorinkan in the Philippines. We had a Shodan in our class, he was the sempai or assistant intructor, and he had trained in a NYC Shotokan dojo. He was fast and extremely strong. I asked him why he didn't just stay with Shotokan, as there was a great dojo in Angeles City where we were at. He said that actually Kobayashi (Shorinkan) was very similar to the Shotokan he had learned in the states -BUT- we had more grappling, better kobudo, more circular principles, more of a 50/50 feel (hard/soft) and the training in Shorin had taught him to be more relaxed and as a result faster, stronger, more efficient and just plain better. He said that Shotokan and Shorinkan, both Itosu-Ha, had similarities and at the same time so many more differences. He was stuck on Shorin from then on out. A shout out to Julio if you're reading this. I feel that the "KarateJutsu" karate that Funakoshi did was akin to the Kobayashi Shorin that Chibana did. Funakoshi's later books detail the reasons for the change, one of which was to make the "barbaric, brutal" tode of his youth into a kinder and gentler animal more fit for the more "modernized" Japanese culture and mindset. It was a selling decision, an attempt to make karate palatable to the Japanese masses. I'm currently a Nidan in Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu. The differences between this form of Shorin and Shorinkan are probably just as striking as the differences between Shotokan and the Shorin Ryuha. Soken left in the 20's and returned after the advent and changes to his beloved Shuri Te. Therefore, his karate was still very much suidi or tode. Remember Itosu's intent was not to create a fighting karate, but a P.E. karate that would benefit "the future soldiers of the Japanese Empire". Funakoshi was only doing what his sensei wanted him to do. We can thank him for being a true tode stylist who understood how to keep Okinawa Te alive. Regardless of the schoolboy intent of gendai budo, without his contributions this forum would probably not even exist. If you want to learn karate beyond the journeyman level, then go find a good Shorin, Uechi, Isshin or Goju Ryu dojo. If you're satisfied with Shotokan or another Japanese style then forget about it. Just keep doing "you'". It's not all equal, but it is similar.

7 * is right on. Don't be fooled by movements in kata or common explanations for blocks and strikes seen in a lot of karate. There are definitely hard blocks appropriate for their situation, but more common, is angular/lateral movement, parrying, stepping into an attack and unbalancing, etc.. Anyhoo, how many years of good karate training do you have? I can tell you that the Gracie SD applications mirror so many other asian arts. You know Gracie SD right? Or are you just doing the sport stuff? Anyway, good looking out 7:)! And, yes, good karate can protect from the uninitiated, unorganized fighter if you are aware and such.

First, great post Sensei Paul! You truly understand how things are. Second, sparring everyday is stupid and unhealthy. Once a week is plenty. Sparring IS NOT fighting, so don't get it twisted. Especialy with no straight or hook punches to the face/head. Those are your best weapons in a street altercation, along with other more serious head, face and neck strikes. Even in football (American) there are times when there is light or no contact, especially before a game. If you injure yourself in the dojo, then how will you be able to maximally protect you and your loved ones on the street? How will you be able to get the job done when you get hurt playing around with confrontation? Up to about 1st kyu sparring can be a beneficial training tool, and it can be a fun game. Sparring at yudansha grade is something I don't push, but heck dowhatchalike! If you allow grappling and groundwork, and teach effective and "quick results" techs then sparring can be good. Prolonged ring fighting is nowhere near realistic. It is not the main tool to teach real fighting, although it does have its merits, especially up to the intermediate level. Again, Sensei Paul, much propers!!!

He is either using his instep to contact the cajones (groin kick) or tobegeri, ("big-toe kick) to the inguinal crease- the crease between the thigh and lower abdomen where your femoral artery runs. That is the original kick. It was changed to a ball of the foot kick when unconditioned kids became the primary students. Plus, the ball of the foot kick is less concentrated and penetrating. You must kick a makiwara for some time to make your big toes strong enough to do this wicked technique. It's not good to pound kids bones before their growth plates have closed off. If you are looking at pics from "Karate Jutsu", then you are seeing Funakoshi's interpretation of Shorei and Shorin Ryu kata. In "Karate-Do Kyohan" many of the forms were "adapted" for sport karate. Conditioning became more important than application for self-preservation. A "kinder and gentler" karate was created.

Sev': Thanks bruh'! You gots me blushing! Kote: My knowledge of Okinawan Karate and its history encompasses both Naha Te and Shuri Te as well as Tomari Te. The thing is I have so much to learn, and have never trained in Goju. I have trained and taught in the same dojo as a Higaonna Goju stylist and an Uechi-ka. They were both really good karate-ka. I have been to many AAU tourneys and seen all styles. They all have their merits. Well conditioned Shorin-ka are more sparse than well conditioned Goju-ka, fo' sheez'! You Goju cats are hella tough and pack a mean punch. It's a great art, but I have trained in some form of Shorin since my adolescence, and you're right, I have a lot to learn about Goju. With your background I'm sure you're awesome. Sorry if I seemd to be dissing you. On the contrary I was giving props to the excellent conditioning and hojo undo inherent in Goju Ryu. Okinawan karate is just too dope regardless of region or ryuha! Peace!!!

If you do Okinawan Goju then I'd agree that there is practical applicability, for sure. I know that Miyagi wanted to make his art a budo like Funakoshi did with his Tode. He even wrote about implementing kumite into his karate. He was one of the first sensei to say that his art should go from a brutal killing style to that of a sport that could be enjoyed by all and used to CONDITION Okinawan and Japanese children. Itosu wanted to do the same thing, and he did. Chibana went back to the essence as did Soken Hohan and Chotoku Kyan and the Shimabukurus. The Jundokan went away from the SD aspects of the art as did Meibukan. They are sparring intensive styles. The same for Yamaguchi's Nissei Goju and Peter Urban's American Goju. The art that was taught to the royal palace guards was Sokon Machimura's Shuri Te, not Naha Te. It was different from Naha Te (goju) in many respects and similar in many. The art taught at Shuri was for personal protection (bodyguard stuff) and self-preservation. Goju is like its Shuri cousin, but ask any Okinawan sensei and visit the Meibukan or Jundokan dojo on Okinawa. Then check out Nishihira's dojo, Miyahira's dojo, Nagamine's dojo or Shuguro Nakazato's dojo or any of the Uechi or Sebukan dojos. There is a difference in training and what they concentrate on. I know from experience. It is a good conditioning art. Higaonna's dojo and affiliated dojos are the exception. It's well rounded and concentrates on good kata. He's gone back to the essence. His kata and bunkai are A #1! So I know for sure there is good Goju out there. It can be a very good SD system if taught right, like any karate system. Maybe you belong to one of those schools? That's all.

If a Shotokan school uses the original forms that Funakoshi Gichin taught as detailed in his first book "KarateJutsu" then "no". Those are variations of the forms he was taught while a student of Itosu and Asato. They preserved a lot of their functionality. The shorter, less dramatic stances are good for fighting and maintaining maneuverability. Those are key trademarks of good Shuri Te: speed and movement. If you attend some full-contact AAU comps you'll see the Shotokan-ka getting the straight forward stuff down, the linear back and forth motion, but because their stances are so deep and wide their lateral movement and body-change are nonexistent. That's more than half your techniques out the window. You can't always rush in head first, or run backwards. That's dumb. Moving at angles and in circles allows you to strike and move. Most folks can't punch or kick effectively while retreating. Kumite in Japan is modeled after the Kendo way of fighting where a lot of forward and backward motion is done, with little emphasis on circular or angular movement. Fencing is also like this. Sport ideas for something that was never intended to be for sport. Funakoshi wanted to make a "kinder and gentler" karate for student practice and conditioning. The dramatic stance changes built young legs up as weightlifting was not common in those days. He didn't want Shotokan to be considered a barbaric brutal art. He wanted something comparable to modern Judo, a true budo vs. bujutsu, a philosophical way to enhance living vs. an art or science for fighting/self preservation. He wanted to limit the fighting lessons and make it fun and enlightening for everyone. He says all this, and lets the reader know over and over that the karate-do he is creating has a different purpose and face than the To-Te/Tode Jutsu he learned growing up on Okinawa. I don't see why anyone has any problem understanding this. I guess folks don't read anymore, they just take their sensei's or organization's word for things. Too bad. In fact after his son and others in the JKA changed things even further, original intent became almost nonexistent. He was so brilliant (Gichin). He preserved the basic principles, without compromising the art which he truly loved. Others did the rest to finish the task he started. I admire him for making karate popular and possibly keeping Okinawan karate around because of Japanese karate's popularity. Genius! Anyway, the Shotokan renderings of the Shuri kata are much different than the Shorin versions. This can be said about Wado and Japanese Shito as well. All you have to do is look at their forms and how they do them. You can see what they are attempting to do, but something is definitely missing. In order to preserve the form you must preserve its essence, otherwise you are practicing a pale imitation of a diluted singular interpretation. Or something like that . For example if you do Naihanchi, not in a Naihanchi ("pigeon toed") stance, but in a shiko dachi or pai sai stance then you're missing the lesson of rising power inherent in Naihanchi, among other things. Whether a kata is Shorei-Te, Tomari-Te or Shuri-Te, keeping the stances and techs true with little deviation is the key to gleaning the lessons. Otherwise you are doing a dance and getting in some shape, but you're just pretending to learn karate fighting. You might as well just spar and evaluate your ability to fight based on that. Which is what most karate-ka/martial artists do. Funakoshi was so slick! Just my 2 centavos...

Sa' Te, Shorin Shinshii and W-squared: Thanks guys. I really don't understand the double standard on many forums. People are CONSTANTLY attacking TMAs based on some * sport competition or so-called NHB competition theory(s). I don't know why when someome does that, and then a REAL karate-ka who has fought on the street AND in the ring tells those folks to STFU and quit stereotyping, using stylistic superiority arguments (that they claim you are using), knowing they ain't never fought as an adult for real, and totally dissing what I KNOW has always and will always work for me and other dedicated "traditionalists", I'm told that I can't post comments anymore as they are dismissive and mean or whatever. If I had a name or was a K-1 kickboxer, BJJer or modern ("gendai") budo-ka or martial wannabe, that had a name or made lots of ducats then I could talk all the smack I wanted. The truth is the truth hurts. There are still a few hardcore "classical mess" types, who you would never know could really kick practically anyone's *. And they can do it without the benefit of sponsors or rules, steroids or 8 hours of debiltating training/day. Putting your hands in the pockets of money makers, control freaks and glory hounds will get you some "haters" real fast. Forgive the arrogance, but I like to tell it like it is. No amount of patchwork-hope MAs principles will make you a master of yourself. You will be superficial and incomplete. Instead of trying to jump on the bandwagon (read as "moneywagon"), get a good foundation in something with sound theories that is HEALTHY and long-term. Anything worth its salt, takes time and hard practice. Going to Med School or learning MAs takes a loooong time. There are no quick-fixes and no amount of mediocre, half stepping will make you into something original. Even real modern "traditional" arts like GJJ take years (10 minimum to be exact) to get a BB. Even real Thailand Muay Thai perfection takes years and years of training like the Thais do, to be as profifcient as Thai Boxers that are Thai. No amount of westernized kickboxing (without elbows and knees, etc.) or sparring will get you to this point. That crap is minimal in scope and roughness. If you're gonna claim it do it like they really do it where it came from. This aim of everyone to be the next Helio Gracie, Mark Kerr or George Dillman is plain silly. The first two were original and the last is a perpetrator of fallacy. The first 2 were technical and athletic geniuses and the latter a lifelong karate-ka who found a get rich quick scheme after 30 years of training. At least they are all "unique" in some sense, whereas the majority of cats will always be followers. It's just easier and the average sucker don't have what it takes to be an innovator anyway. How can one be true to himself, without ever coming to true self-revelation or realization? Follow to learn how to lead oneself. Then lead when you have yourself figured out. On Sanchin; Sanchin is also done by some ryuha and schools of Shorin lineage. Shorinji Sanchin is a mild version of the NahaTe version, where audible breathing is performed but in a more natural manner without the tension. It is a good thing. Similar principles and body-conditioning can be reached doing Naihanchi and Seisan also. I love Uechi Ryu/Pangai Noon. I love Higaonna Goju. Morio Higaonna is awesome, definitely one of the best karate-ka in the world. I don't see all dojos that teach Shorin as superior. In fact many are no different than the average karate dojo you see on the street corner. I know from experience Okinawan karate is a very well-rounded way to fight and train. It's for the long haul. It's principles should adapt with the times, but its fundamental techs, philosophies and lessons should never be changed. Bad breathing tech or training is not good for the long haul. I'd rather hear "good looking out" rather than "you hate Goju" because the former is true and the latter a bunch of crap. Yes I have posted here before under a different name and was told that my speech was not free here, that it was a dictatorship and to shut my trap in so many words. I mean they emailed me and stuff. The truth must have KO'd someone that day, hahaha! Ain't that like life? The wrong people's words are heeded and respected so fast so that the voice of reason is incoherent in the din of stupidity's echos. People tend to focus on a few odd terms in type and think they have someone's personality all figured out. Whatever. Those who conform to bad form will never be formless. Those who do not understand true form can never realize what a nonconformist is. Do what you know for yourself is true and right, and don't take anyone's word for it. Unless of course they can validate words with action. Too bad you can't show emotion, intonation or techs on the web. Many people would shut their holes for once and learn something more right than their perceived right. Good luck and training all. I'll reply to something idiotic soon. No doubt. Peace...

You're right I am a Shorin-ka. I have nothing against any Okinawan karate, or ANY good karate for that matter. I tell you these things because physiologically they are true. Ibuki breathing, where you "squeeze" the air slowly from your lungs, forcefully exhaling, is called a valsalva maneuver. It causes a rapid increase in your pulse (heartrate), which is proceeded by a dramatic decrease of pulse rate and blood pressure. It also causes increased intravascular pressure (your veins act like a contricted hose). This leads to the blood being shot rapidly through your vessels. When you get older fat deposits (and other "debris" or plaque) that stick to your vessels can become dislodged and shot up to the brain, causing a Cerebral Vascular Accident (CVA) aka a stroke, maybe even a PE or pulmonary embolus. Other problems like aneurysms can be a consequence too. This is why, with the exception of a couple of Goju Sensei, most have died of these sort of things before reaching a ripe old age. The Okinawans are reknowned for their longevity, living well into their 80s, so why do the majority of Goju Sensei die before reaching 70? So how do I know all these cool things? I read and I'm a former USAF Paramedic who is now in his last year of Medical School, and an Okinawan MAs history-phile. I'll be an MD real soon. You see, not everyone who gets on these forums is a know-nothing or a "can-do-nothing" web-warrior. Some are legit you just ain't heard of us, yet. You would think that my vocabulary, historicity, science and delivery would be enough to tip you off. I'm no imbecile and have been in some martial sport or art since I was 7. I'm in my mid-30s now, so that should give you a barometer of my time in service. 'Nawmean? Look, do what you like. I doesn't have an effect on me. I'm just trying to be cool and helpful. Knowledge is power. Look up my claims for yourself. Heck, if you do MAs you better understand how the human body works. After all it is your vehicle for that trip up the mountain. Sorry if you don't like the truth. Most folks who think they know what is right for them based on emotion and want, never do like reality. Later, and don't train too hard. You don't want to get mugged when your 70 and be all broke up and shite! Plus, strokes and blown out lungs suck! Later

Hahaha! You finally figured it out. I agree with almost everything you post, here and elsewhere. Most folks just ain't got it. You know that killer instinct, and natural fighters are few and far between. People say that forums just focus on lip service. You can tell how proficient and knowledgable someone is by the words they use and the experiences they detail. We really do agree on practically everything. No, my Sensei never trained in grappling except for tuite/ti/tegumi principles inherent in Matsumura's style, although fullbacks learn a bit about the clinch if you know what I mean. He just understands things and really delves into his art 110%. He has practiced diligently everyday forever now, and other than being a "Tree Surgeon", MAs is his only job. His dojo is in his backyard. All concrete, floors and all. Ouch! Anyway, good lookin' out 7*. Jeff: Of course I know of Anthony Sandoval. He also trained with my sensei and is very good. Is he your instructor? Anyway, I agree with you on the TMA point. Most around nowadays just plain suck for real fighting purposes. Remember, White Crane is a true TMA to the core. TJS: Remco Pardeu. I forgot that cat. He was alright with that limp wristed Frankenstein fighting stance and all, hahahaha! Most of those guys you mentioned did not fight Royce. Most of them would have been toast if they did. All the guys you mentioned were big, athletic types. Was Dan Sevsern or Don Frye in those first 3 UFCs? There are so many of those bastidges I just can't remember (aren't they on UFC 1000 now?). Anyway, Frye and Severn weren't scrubs. I really liked Don Frye. I forgot that guy. A lot of the guys in the first UFC definitely were. Great topic guys. Peace... O.K.! Let's see what stands the test of time. The quick fixes or the long-term cures. Later lovers...

Most definitely, and no doubt. Who was/is your Hakutsuru instructor?

Yeah all valid rebuttals. I have experience in GJJ (under Caique and Ryron Gracie whom I still train with at times), Judo and Boxing. Judo and boxing were my first MAs. I have always had a good grasp of jacket wrestling and the use of the fisticuffs. The same for my sensei. He was a Golden Glove in Austin before playing starting fullback for Texas A&M. I guess I could include football too . His experience and my life experience leads me to believe that a lot of folks parrot what they see and hear. In fact that is a very sad fact. They don't base it on their own empiricism, they live vicariously through the lives and livelihoods of others. My sensei was an MP (K9 officer) in Okinawa and Vietnam in the 60s. He did Shotokan, Uechi ryu and Okinawan Kenpo, before totally switching to one area of MAs emphasis- Shorin Ryu. Why didn't he become a boxing coach or even continue boxing? Why does he believe so strongly in what he has done for 4 decades now? Because at 6'3" and 250 pounds, a pro level athlete with great dexterity, speed and strength, his excellent boxing and grappling skills meant naught against a real fighter like Fusei Kise who was 5'5" and about 170 pounds in the 60s. Those geeks that claimed to be legit strikers and karate-ka in the first UFCs, (Fred Ettish for example) had never fought or taken real bone-on-bone contact to any real degree before. Royce is awesome. No doubt, all the Gracies and all their BBs are. They fight for a living. It is their life. They dedicate 100% of their time to GJJ. It is their duty to do so. It's called tradition. You know, that word people hate to use in MAs nowadays. Contrary to popular belief those crash pads they used don't allow for maneuverability. That was a grapplers paradise. BTW I did see that UFC where Frank KO'd the cat with a body slam ("spearing the ball" is the tech in karate). I've seen that done about 20 times on concrete. You should see what it does then. I saw a Judo guy get double-legged by a non-grappler who was quite a bit smaller than him, but did the right technique for the situation. Judo or GJJ guarantees nothing when Mr. Surprise and Adrenalin Dump rear their ugly heads. My point is, most of those guys in the first 3 UFCs were scrubs. Ken Shamrock and Royce excluded. Gordeau was OK, but c'mon. Did you see what kind of shape he was in? Anyway, Rorion funded UFC to showcase his family's art. He wasn't gonna ask the best to come against Royce and his family's style. This leaves us with people who have never really fought on that level before. That's the truth. The element of surprise is always a good equalizer. About palm strikes. Please. That's for girls. There is a time for that, but fragile hand bones hitting rock hard skull is not good technique, no matter what the striking adages say. Trust me, I'm an Orthopedic Hand Surgery Resident. Open hand strikes are for soft areas like the ears, neck, eyes and not much more. Palm strikes are good for chin striking/pushing when in close. Everything else is closed fist. Not padded fist either. No pads and wraps on the street. BTW bag work is not chi gung. Kata is. Bagwork pales to hitting really hard things that don't move like wall mounted makiwara. I do bagwork and never use wraps, tape or gloves either. What for? So I can throw that looping a$$ed hook to Trinidad's hard head? Nope. It's for Billy Bad * without gloves. Boxers always ask me how long I've been boxing and won't that hurt your hands? I smile. Getting into the street mode is not as easy as you think. Maybe one day you'll experience this, but hopefully not. Everyone has their purposes for training. I was a PJ in the AF who laughed when h2h was taught. Obviously whoever made up the curriculum had never fought, one-on-one or otherwise, in the streets. Training for keeps is completely different. Intent is everything. That ring crap is for gamers and wanna-be players addicted to epinephrine (adrenalin). I did it as a kid and progressed to grown folks fighting when I got older and smarter. GJJ's self defense is really what you focus on if you do privates at Gracie Torrance. That was how Helio really wanted to teach his art. Based on his SD techs. You don't have to tell me about GJJ schools who focus on the SD. They train people like me in that way because they know me and understand my needs and skills. Plus, who better to roll with than an authentic gracie . I don't think rolling with the entire class is necessary if you are a person "acclimated" to real combat. I am a karate-ka through and through, but I always like to see others perspectives. I totally repect fighting from the guard and the skill at which they do it. It is situational specific though and rarely indicated on the streets of America. I still kickbox every so often too, because like GJJ, it can be fun and rewarding and nostalgic. That's all I use to do in the Philippines. I train in Okinawan Karate, under a knowledgable and prodigious traditional sensei. Guys like that, who know real fighting, are waiting for the shoot, as am I and my bro and others who train and know the truth. My sensei's able to counter almost all takedown attempts or throws. Judo or Suai Jiao are the last things you want to use on guys like him. I can only tell you what I know being someone who has been fighting in some form or another for 25+ years now. This is solely based on what I've seen and done myself. Even if you are the best judo-ka a forum guy could be I doubt I would be an easy mark. What I know works and is based on my life growing up in a place where everyone was a MA type of some sort, and they liked to prove their worth. From Boxing to Wrestling, TKD to Muay Thai. What I did numerous times for real in my life worked, and I bet it still does. Don't lump everything into a general category. It's like stereotyping a race or something know-what-I-mean Sev'? There are plenty of traditional karate-ka who could hold their own against any level of opponent (especially with the element of surprise on their side). I'm sure someone someday will go about proving this, but right now there is no need. It's better to know what your enemy does and for them to be left assuming or not knowing. Ask the Gracies who are being compensated monetarily, but at the same time some of their arts efficacy was lost in the process. There are athletic types who make traditional karate work for them like the work horse athletes of MMAs and BJJ (traditional grappling IMHO) make those styles work for them. Ya'll just don't know any. So allow me to introduce myself... I need no validation and you can believe me or diss me. Whatever. I know the truth. PS: Who's this cat (JR) claiming White Crane Karate then dissing what it stands for? Are you none-too-swift or just stupid? Must be a Jar-rine. Like Malcolm X said "No Sell Outs!!!" Next!

TSD has many of the same form names (in Korean) for their poomse ("kata") as Shorin Ryu, Wado Ryu, Shito ryu and Shotokan. Depending upon the school, there are a lot TSD McDojos, TSD takes more of the traditional approach. 7* already mentioned Chuck Norris, whose TSD club use to clean up at full-contact and traditional karate tourneys. They were know for their kicks, but they were also good with their hands. Most TKD I've seen really neglects the use of hands in sparring and relies heavily on kicking. It is Korean Karate, whereas TKD nowadays is usually for TKD competition. TSD reminds me of Matsubayashi Ryu with deeper stances and more high kicks. It can be good and (as "Gracie In Action" demonstrated) not so hot. There are big differences in the ideology of each style. We have no TKD people under my sesnei's umbrella org., but we do have a few TSD schools (and about 7 other Japanese and Okinawan karate ryuha- even Kyokushinkai) who train to learn the "essence" that has been forgotten by most Japanese and Korean Karate. If those are your choices for schools I'd say check out TSD, unless it is a TKD school headed by Henry Choi.

Those pics with Kuda sensei are great! Sensei Lindsey also quit Kenshinkan because of the politics. Matsumura Kenpo is very similar, I would agree, but Lindsey will often show us the subtle differences between the two styles. There aren't many. I would agree that Fusei Kise and Seizan Kinjo were Sensei Lindsey's greatest influences. It's great to know there are others out there who do traditional styles influenced by Hohan Soken's philosophies and methodology. I do know that during the 70s Kuda's dojo was known for having very effective and proficient fighters. They were really feared when it came to free-sparring. Sensei Lindsey is a very knowledgable and capable karate-ka. His ability to use karate for real fighting is a thing one must experience for themselves. We are so lucky to have 2 great senseiei to train under. PS: Lanky is good. Sinew strength seems to be easier to attain and is more prevalent in the lankier types. That reach is definitely and asset and most lanky guys are fast and deceptively strong. Not that I believe in Chi or anything , but when I looked at those pictures I got that "hey, he has good chi" vibe. That includes Sensei Mason and definitely Yuichi Kuda (great "catch kick" photo). Peace and good luck!

The spinning back kick is good to know. It's a very effective sparring technique. Even the jump spinning variety has been used effectively by non-karateka in Pride (watch Sakuraba's old Pride matches). For the street don't do it. Then again, it might be case specific. I did see a friend of mine use it outside a club once when a bunch of knuckleheads were threatening to kick his * from a small truck. He walked up to the driver and asked "what did you say" and when the guy proceeded to open the door he did a jump spinning kick into the open window that landed square on his face. Those dumbfux drove away real quick! Hahaha! Believe it or don't, hahahaha!

I apologize for hijacking your thread krunch'. My histories may be a little different than some, but the same as others. If you find a good traditional dojo, stick with it whatever the style. Many of the greatest karate-ka like Yuchoku Higa, became adept at Shorin and Goju. Equs': You picked a great style, in my opinion. Seibukan is all you'll really need as far as karate or a complete MA goes. At a seminar years ago Shimabukuro Sensei made the comment that with years of kata training and eventual understanding of the movements, jujutsu-like (tuite) throws and submissions could be gleaned. He was so right on when he said that, and true Okinawan stylists, whether Goju, Uechi or Shorin can attest to this fact. 2-man drills (partner drills) are the missing element in many modern karate systems. There was no real kumite before Shotokan. The only real matches were for keeps; NHB fighting that occured when someone wanted to test someone else's claims. So with the exception of hojo undo and kata training, 2-man drills were a very effective way to measure the ryuhas principles. I don't dismiss Shotokan or Wado at all. I don't think that Nisei Goju or Chinese Goju stylists don't do good forms of karate. I have the utmost respect for Funakoshi and realize people other than himself changed the intent of that ryu's karate completely. Funakoshi learned under Asato and Itosu. In fact he was the only true student of Master Asato, who was a highly respected member of the Okinawan royal family, master calligrapher and Jigen Ryu swordsman. He also learned under Matsumura. Being of high stature in the Okinawan social hierarchy, he was privy to such legendary teachers. He is often thought of as someone who had meager skill. I don't know if this is true. He may have been average as far as karate-ka were concerned, but average then probably meant "G-DizAMN good" now. Many Okinawans despised him for "selling-out" to the Japanese, and therefore said some unfair things about him. He was very proficient in tegumi ("Okinawan JJ"), as were most young men of that era. That means he could grapple on the ground and standing. He said himself that this greatly increased his ability and understanding when it came to tode jutsu. He could definitely hold his own in all ranges I think. If you see pics of him in his younger years he was an outstanding physical specimen. What he taught the Japanese was probably just an intermediate, incomplete understanding of what true tode was. That was his intent. Keep it alive, but don't give it all away. He was a very smart cat. He wanted to make the Okinawans look like a refined, civilized people. they edserved that as they were always a peaceful, intuitive and laid back sort. He mentions this in "Karate Jutsu" in so many words. He made the concept and the philosophy of tode/karate a worldwide phenomenon. Now we have forums like this where we can disparage, hype or ignore him. Radok, this leads me to you. I had an assistant instructor on Clark AB in the Philippines by the name of Julio who was a Shotokan stylist that said the same thing. He detailed the differences as he knew them and explained that what we did was similar, but much more logical at the same time. He also taught me how to sprawl when facing a wrestler's shoot. It saved my * more than once in the streets. My current sensei was a Boxer, Shotokan, Uechi Ryu and Shorinji Ryu stylist before becoming a Matsumura Seito stalwart. Without Shotokan maybe he would never have done any karate ever, and I'd be out 1 great shinshii (sensei). You real traditionalists keep training and don't give in to the quick fix mentality. Anything worth its mustard takes years to master. Patience will get you to that point. Even a so-called modern "non-traditional" art like GJJ (actually it is a traditional family system [older than a lot of karate styles] in every sense of the word) takes years to truly master. If you train in an art and find something more conducive to your personality and needs by all means switch quickly. "Get in where you fit in" as the kids say. Adapt and adopt like "Matsumura's Bucho Ikko" states. Good luck on attaining your PhD Equinanimus. Happy training and long life to you all.

Started with Wado, in 1981. Did that until I went into the Army in 1991. When I got to Germany I was unable to find a Wado dojo, so went for what was available: Shotokan. Did that from 1991-2003. When I moved back to Colorado to enter the PhD program in history at CU Boulder, I found the Seibukan dojo run by Sensei Victor Banks. I don't know any Sensei Hayes. I know of a person named Bill Hayes, but I thought he did Okinawa Kempo. We are part of Dan Smith's organization, and directly under the Hombu Dojo and Hanshi Shimabukuro. As for how I should have "avoided rude comments," I have yet to find a situation where anyone "deserves" rude comments. If your ego is so easily bruised that you find yourself easily offended, then perhaps there are ways you may improve your self worth without wasting time and displaying rudeness. Those who so quickly respond in the manner you did generally have a great deal of personal growth to experience. Have a good evening. No, no, no. Bill Hayes is 100% Shobayashi like yourself. You should know this man. He really studied directly, on Okinawa, under Sensei Shimabukuro. He's like a 7th or 8th dan, dude. Personal growth is never ending. Harsh words on a type-written forum will not bruise anything but your ego. I am not hurt at all, but you seem to be flustered a bit. Chill, bruh':D. If you are a PhD then you comprehending my colloquialisms and elementary grammar should be no prob, bro'. You had to write a dissertation for God's sake! Correct me only if there is a correction needed. I am not one of your presumptuous undergrad students. I'm an MD with years of experience in Okinawan Karate. Did Judo, boxing, GJJ at Gracie Torrance (still do), but my true love is Shorin Ryu. I do have room to mature more as do we all. I would never make the comprehension mistakes that you made. That I can say for certain. Sorry if you feel I'm a bad person unworthy to be taught any MA. I'm glad you can discern my character from these few posts. Do you make ducats off that innate skill ? You do react very patently to my writing style, that I'll say with certainty. People on the net always want to feel they know it all and hate a know-it-all (I'm not one but have been mistaken for one). The truth is what we all need, regardless what G.W. tells us all! I don't lie to your face while I smile and speak softly. I tell it like it is in a very clear tone. Ommmmmmmm!!!! Pax Egyptiana rolls on in the name of C.U. Grad' School.... CU , C.U. Grad dude!

Yeah, I know, I've done 3 of them.

Well, yes and no. Our dojo was originally part of Nagamine's WMKA. Nagamine Shoshin was there for my Brown Belt grading as he was doing a tour of his BEST stateside schools that year. Once we became a part of Ota's org., I was already halfway out of the dojo door. Shobayashi is a very good system. I have respected every BB practitioner of this system that I've met. It is very sismilar to Kobayashi, whether Shorinkan or Shidokan. I think you'd dig it too. Check out the dojo and the quality of students, sensei, sempai etc., and if all looks cool tell the instructor that you are a Matsubayashi Ryu stylist who is interested in getting a slightly different perspective on things. I bet he'd be delighted to have you. People, there are superior styles just like there are superior boxing gyms and BJJ schools. Don't be fooled. All karate (and MAs) were not created equal. The closer you are to the source the better the "product". Shuri Ryu (a so-called Okinawan style) is not the same as a real Okinawan system no matter what people might think. You can call a Hyundai a Rolls Royce, but it just ain't the truth. Karate is karate, like cars are cars and universities are universities. Schreiner University in Seguin, Tx is never gonna hold the prestige, name and grade of professors that Harvard does. There is something to be said for things that truly stand the test of time. It's not about stylistic superiority it's about reality. Oh yeah, the practitoner does matter too, but if you learn Tae Bo and are very athletic don't expect to meet up with a K1 kickboxer in the ring (or on the street), who is athletic AND armed with real skill, and expect to do anything but taste canvas real fast. Thanks and sorry again for being so blunt.

Hahahaha! Cool man, I gets it. Peace....

Illiterate? no. Vastly better mannered than you? Obviously! With your attitude I'm suprised you haev found anyone wiling to teach you. Perhaps you are only rude when at the keyboard, yes? No, I can be really short at times and I can be quite civil unless blamed for something I didn't do or say. In order to avoid such rude comments, you should've made sure you understood what was written before casting blame and condemning my supposed stupidity on the web. Know what I mean? Sorry to be curt. I am a good student and decent teacher, I do know that. I also know what it is I do and the history behind it. I delve and respect the sprirt of the thing, so it will in turn respect me. That's who I am. Let me ask you something. Why do Wado, Shotokan and Shorin Ryu? If you do Shorin then there is no reason to do patchwork Japanese Karate. Shotokan is new Shorin and Wado is new Shotokan with JJJ principles. With the original striking techs and kata of Seibukan and the tegumi/tutite inherent in Shorin Ryu why do either Japanized style? Just curious. It seems really odd to someone like me. BTW who is your Seibukan Sensei? My sensei is really good friends with Sensei Hayes. Have you heard of him?

Never said he was. He is the head of Higaonna Goju Ryu. What's up with all the comprehension probs? My post is quite detailed.

Are you illiterate? What I wrote was I did Shorinkan in S.E. ASIA AND MATSUBAYASHI IN SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS. I was under Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do founder Shuguro Nakazato. I didn't specify where, but I said I did Kobayashi in Asia and Matsubayashi in the USA. So where did you get that junk from? Don't hate. RIF- Reading Is Fundamental.... Believe me I know the difference and it is huge. One is a very good Shorin Ryuha and the other (Matsubayashi) is the worst of the Shorin Ryuha. IMO. That is that. Don't tell me what I've done or about Shorin Ryu. I've done 3 of its major ryuha.