eighthundred

This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style. While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was. So far, we know two things: 1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And, 2. It doesn't take a century for this happen. I am talking about some of the current styles of karate that were founded in the 1920s-30s. But this brings up another point. Some have alluded to karate being a general term, while others have alluded to the term karate being the focal point of the question of this thread -- questioning if karate Japanese. While I don't necessarily disagree with either, 'karate', or the history, people, and ideas that form it, obviously existed before the term; either current or former meaning. This is why I believe it's way more nuanced than when the word was first coined. To answer the two points Sailor Sindbad made: 1) Exactly, and this applies to karate itself. At what point did what we now know as karate cease to become ti, tegumi, kenpo, kungfu, etc. 2) I would agree but with the caveat that this evolution and development is likely happening at a much faster rate within this past century than in the past. This is simply due to access and technology. I would generally say three generations or a half century is a good benchmark.

There's a whole lot of nuance to this that I'd probably have to start another topic on. But just so I'm clear... are you saying karate is Chinese? To add to this... look at pizza. Depending on where everyone lives in the world one's idea of pizza may be different. I'd argue that most of the world now thinks of the pizza created by Italian immigrants in America (the US), which is different from actual Italian pizza. But people still might generally understand pizza as being Italian food. So which is it? I personally feel American pizza is American food. It's had over a century to develop and become its own thing -- from access to ingredients to even how the sauce is made. I generally feel the same way about karate, which, depending on style, also has over a century worth of development in a generally specific location, that makes it different from its source of origin.

This is probably closest to my own thoughts on the subject. What makes you think it's exclusively Chinese in origin? Chinese influence is clear, but everything I've read suggests an amalgamation of Okinawan martial styles with Chinese styles. So it's not kung-fu because we call it karate? Language is clearly a differentiating factor, which I understand clearly, but I absolutely disagree that kung fu is karate or vice versa.

Some interesting responses so far. Let me just say that I respect whatever opinions you have... many of which I may share. I'm bad with tone in real life and it's sometimes reflected in my writing. My intent is not to butt heads with anyone, but to work out topics that have been stuck in my brain. So if I were to take Shotokan, move to another country, add breakdancing elements, and call it another name... would it cease to become Shotokan? Also, Karate having mixed elements of Muay Boran and Savate is pure speculation of which I've only heard come from Jesse Enkamp. I find his stuff entertaining but it's not at all based on hard evidence. Of course, if you have other sources I'd love to see it. Thanks for your .02. I did purposely leave the question broad to try and get a diverse set of responses. You bring up some good points I want to follow up on. First, the point that Okinawa has only been a part of Japan since the late 1800s... I think this is a point that gets glossed over a lot in discussions about karate. Obviously Okinawa, and Ryukyuans in general, were assimilated into Japan but had their own language, culture, etc. of which "karate" would fall under. Is karate than more Japanese than Okinawan? If so, why? Second, would you say you consider TKD as karate or style of it? Third, and somewhat related to the second... If we are to follow the logic of styles of karate having a level of Japanese influence, then why aren't all styles of karate considered Quanfa, Kung Fu, or Chinese? I agree with you when it comes to the big picture, and ones own personal training. There comes a point in one's own development when you realize that all martial arts are the same. However, I think the question I pose is more pointed. There is a cultural aesthetic to the different arts that are reflections of the people who developed them. And I'm not just talking about the clothes they wear. Techniques themselves are representative of different cultural aesthetics. If you consider this, then how would you distinguish karate?

So is language and terminology the deciding factor for you? What is your barometer in regard to karate? At what point, if any, does it go from being "coming from China" to just Japanese?

First of all, my apologies for the bait-like nature of the question. The reason I ask is because I somewhat recently saw a clip of a Chinese talent-competition show and one of the contestants was demonstrating her love for TKD. One of the judges was a well-known Chinese action star and he was lecturing this girl on how TKD was really Chinese. To be honest, I disagree, but it got me to start thinking about why I disagree. So I turn the question to you. But frankly, I am more interested in why you believe the way you do?

Interesting. It seems that yubi-hasami and hira basami have different applications to how kahl jaebi would be used. However, while looking I found the term toho uchi which is closer to the application I had in mind.

In Korean this is called kahl jaebi. Including a picture as I am also interested in what the Japanese terminology would be. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzBcm5zr7FmehtMlh2pczrrHwU5pFgeHikI_PEjZItFDr78hDplDFmUcZOSxjFtabRLRg&usqp=CAU

I'm saying and emphasizing it in a general sense since that is the existing narrative out there. It is unfortunate but politics within a group is expected. After all, people are people. In this particular case, even if you dig lightly you'll begin to see which one has substance and which do not, and I am of the hope that that will win out in the end.

Those hand motions are unique to Widae amongst the taekkyeon organizations. I've seen similar concepts in other martial arts, but the fundamentals and reasoning behind them are still different. The fact that they are very different from what you've seen in TKD is something I want to stress. TKD did not come from taekkyeon, although taekkyeon did have some small influences on TKD.

My first post on Karateforums will lend some context to this topic. Hope you don't mind me including that text again here... To answer Himokiri Karate's original question... it's very difficult to find a taekkyeon school outside of Korea (this is even before considering the information I included above). Having said that, I know that one organization has a presence in France, another organization has a presence in Germany, and Widae Taekkyeon is currently within the United States in Los Angeles. Again, Widae Taekkyeon is Song's lineage of taekkyeon, in other words, historical taekkyeon. Widae Taekkyeon still exists and is practiced today but is largely unheard of and doesn't have much of an English online presence. The reason for this is largely due to the politics within taekkyeon. To give you a short version... I mentioned in my original post that the current head of Widae, Ko (last name), immigrated to the US in the 1980s shortly before the death of Song. Well, in the early 2000s he opened a school in Los Angeles (which has since closed) and there were some Korean language news articles written about him. These made it to Korea where it caused a kind of commotion amongst taekkyeon practitioners. A short time later, a book was published about taekkyeon (mainly just photos showing Song demonstrating taekkyeon techniques) and lo and behold Ko was a key figure in the book. This led to some practitioners seeking Ko out and discovering that Widae was very different from the "taekkyeon" that they had been exposed to. This led to a lot of questions being asked, which in turn led to an exodus of taekkyeon practitioners, many of whom turned to Widae taekkyeon. Some of the other organizations responded to this by denouncing Widae and Ko. Meanwhile, Ko met with and shared his knowledge to anyone who sought him out, but that backfired on him as some of that knowledge miraculously started appearing in those same organizations that tried to discredit him. This is the direct reason for a lack of -- particularly videos -- online presence for Widae. To add some more background... Although they may look similar to the laymen, these four organizations are vastly different when it comes to curricula, terminology, emphasis and even philosophy. This is even why you see so many different spellings of taekkyeon (taekkyon, taekgyeon, taekkyun) as the official English spelling for each organization is different. When I say Widae is different, it's readily apparent to anyone who has practiced taekkyeon. First of all, Song emphasized the martial aspect of Widae. In the aforementioned book, there are techniques where Song is gouging eyes, joint locking, and even pinching (can't think of a better word) sensitive areas. This is extremely different from the other organizations, such as... ..this one, mentioned by DWx, whose stance is that taekkyeon was a game. Their kicking techniques emphasize pushing as to not harm the opponent, which gives you an idea of how different they can be. Widae is also balanced in both hands and feet, which you won't see in other organizations in any practical way. Here is a video of what Widae taekkyeon looks like...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DcwAnee9Pc The man demonstrating was actually a top-ranked member (CCO if I recall correctly) of one of the other taekkyeon organizations, but everything he is showing in this video is Widae Taekkyeon. This is because he is also a professor and he sought out Ko on his own. This eventually led to his ties being cut with said organization. This is also him -- on the right -- demonstrating some of that organizations curriculum... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHkN0_aH4vs&t=32s ...notice the contrast? Anyways, the information available in English basically hasn't caught up or is focused on a false narrative about taekkyeon. There is a lot of information in Korean especially for those interested in taekkyeon, but that's just it... the general Korean population is not interested enough to go against the false narrative either. Hopefully, this will change in the future...

Thanks for the welcome.

Hi all... Stumbled across this thread as I fell into a typical google rabbit hole and saw that taekkyeon was mentioned. Just wanted to clarify some things about taekkyeon since there is not a lot of substantial information about it available in English. Taekkyeon being a retcon/reimagining is in a roundabout way partially true. The problem is that taekkyeon is not a monolith and there are in fact four main organizations who all teach different curricula despite claiming to come from the same root source = Song Duk Ki. This is generally what most people don't understand about taekkyeon. Of the four aforementioned organizations, the smallest and least known is Song Duk Ki's taekkyeon (called Widae Taekkyeon <~~ I'll explain more about this later), which looks very different from the rest. The other organizations are what I'd call the "retcons" and are in fact greatly influenced by taekwondo. This is simply because the founders of these other organizations all had backgrounds in TKD. And this goes to answer the first part of what I quoted above... the claims of being trained in taekkyeon by TKD people... only a handful of people can claim to have been trained in taekkyeon and there are various reasons as to which I'll explain. Taekkyeon is only known to have existed in Seoul. All historical record (paintings, pictures, written accounts) of taekkyeon were recorded around what is now modern day Seoul. This is not to say it didn't exist in other parts of Korea under a different name. In fact, that is the current popular theory. Some of you may have heard of Soo Bahk -- different from Soo Bahk Do, although the latter obviously took inspiration from the former -- some believe taekkyeon and soo bahk could have been the same as they are mentioned together in at least one historical document, but it's not clear if they are one and the same. Also, it is not uncommon for something to have a different name in another region of the country in general because culturally Koreans (especially historically) tend to be tribal. This tribal nature is related to taekkyeon and where I personally believe the "game" aspect/misconception comes from. I mentioned that Song's taekkyeon is called Widae taekkyeon. Widae is loosely translated to something like "upper village" and describes an area of Seoul within the gates of what was historical Seoul. This area is where Song lived all his life, specifically in a neighborhood called Sajik right outside the walls of the palace. Taekkyeon itself is described by Song and in historical evidence as a competition between villages. Song described an Araetdae, or lower village, that existed outside the gates of old Seoul. I describe all this to give some background and to also make the point that if someone were to claim to have been trained in taekkyeon it would have had to have been in Seoul pre WWII. This itself is unlikely because Song rose to prominence based on the fact that he was the last known inheritor of taekkyeon, which eventually led to his designation as a living cultural asset of Korea. I want to point out that many Koreans knew the existence of taekkyeon at this time, but just did not know the skills. In fact, the first president of Korea is famously known to have called what is now TKD taekkyeon the first time it was demonstrated to him. And TKD is indeed called such to more closely resemble taekkyeon. The next logical point if someone were to claim to have been trained in taekkyeon would have had to have been with Song Duk Ki post Korean war. Many individuals did seek out Song once he became known, but only a very small handful can say they actually trained under him. If we were to examine the three current heads of the "retcons" only one can claim to have learned from Song directly and for any significant length of time. In reality, most people who sought Song out probably learned a few moves here and there and went on their way. And some of these techniques did make their way into TKD - kahl jebi being the most famous example. The current leader of Widae Taekkyeon, by the way, lived in the same neighborhood as Song Duk Ki and was Song's longest tenured disciple before moving to the US a few years prior to Song's death. Song Duk Ki died in the late 1980s and the retcon organizations popped up after the mid to late 90s. Paints a picture doesn't it? Anyways, I hope this is useful information. I'll gladly answer any follow up questions for those interested. (EDIT - Sorry about the formatting.)