Miick 11

The other issue is , its not about 'another place to train' . I am beyond that now, and in any case too old for it . I am more of a coach ; I can show young fit people with experience in karate how to apply what I know ... but I am certainly not up for 'a 50 man spar' I am more interested in doing seminars and offering what I have in that type of environment . I have been to a few seminar type instructions that other clubs put on, they where great and I learned a LOT from them . ... and , of course, a 'certain person' would never accompany me to these , even though a few other local club heads , teachers and seniors went along .

Thanks, your feedback is appreciated . I did write a long post in response , but I have no idea where it went ? Anyway , this has broached into another general subject, which I hope to post on later about : the Student instructor relationship . The other day I saw a good video from a many years long Iaido practitioner ; " Why I hate Iaido . " he bought up some relevant points to 'karate instruction' that I'd like to discuss here in another thread .

.... then stomped it into the ground.... then kicked it in the river . I probably should not have , but lost it due to frustration . I think , I should have been more patient and explained what was going on for me but then ..... I realized that has been my approach for over 5 years ! nothing seems to get through or make a difference. I may well have given up martial arts . I dont want to , but I dont know who I am going to train with anymore ? I live in a rural area ... and NO ONE else does anything like I do .... except for one person who 'gets it '. I train ; 17 empty hand katas ( plus a heap of bunkais and drill developed from them ) and the same with 17 katas ; bo , jo, eku, sai, kama, tonfa and a lot of boken ... I guess that is all going to be done 'in the air' now . I suppose I will wait until the dust settles from the explosion and see what happens then .... but no way can I go back to what was happening (eg. I am not going to list all my complaints .... too many, but an example of 'annoyance' : sword match .... slow speed so we can observe and learn ( yet another thing instigated by me ) , my partner ( the one guy that 'gets me' ) enters with a nice tsuki , and slices the 'blade' across my throat , I stop, bow to him . We start again , I mange to come in over the top and down and stab him in the shoulder and push him back ... he goes back, I pull the blade out and slash , he stops and bows to me . I do the same technique to 'instructor' .... he refuses to go back when pushed with the sword tip ( a slow tsuki) after I get past his guard , he gets annoyed , lets go of his own sword with one hand , grabs my 'blade' with his hand and 'annoyed' pulls it out of the way ! .... I have to keep telling him " dont try to grab a sword blade , you keep saying to train with a boken like it is a real sword ... now IS IT , or is it a 'sword jo' make up your mind - then he will not answer . That and other behavior has driven students away or any new interested person . About 40% of applied technique he 'teaches' comes from me .... yet I pay him to support a hall rental for the club for night classes I dont even go to, nor really does anyone else nowadays . . . then he moaned to the remaining guy that 'no one pays me for instruction ' . Thats it ! I am out .

We have been ding all sorts of stuff with kata at training . Instigated by me as 'instructor' has been away a lot lately . The guys get bored and so do I . Instructor doesnt seem to , just happy to do kata the same way over and over again with the same old, stale , near 'mythological ' bunkai / applications . So several things are done now ; A standard type of formal bunkai .... still , 'rigid and robot like' - like a ritual , or a tea ceremony . A more dynamic version where the other tries counters against the bunkai . A version where its more dynamic, or 'real' where both move around and 'spa' . Or this ; pick a kata , pick 3 moves , 'spar' tying to use mostly those moves or bunkai (other techniques allowed to 'mix it up a bit' but we concentrate on a few specifics, examine them , gauge their effectiveness, etc . 'Match speed ' - doing the above but at slower speeds and each going to same speed as the other ( 'Instructor simply can not do this ... he HAS TO speed up ) - its great for timing, finding gaps, examining movements etc . Along with this we try to react and follow through eg ; at times, even if you are in slow motion mode , you can see an opportunity to deliver a perfect technique or counter. The other should go with it, eg. a strong strike to the side of the head, does not stop before contact, but becasue its slow, it pushes the others head, neck ad their body follows into a specific shape , then you work on that shape . This revealed that some where, even in slow mo, well out of proper range .... too much sparring without striking , just 'flicking' techniques a couple of inches away from target . Last week, these games revealed ; the benefit of 'cross step in, slap down a guard and deliver a vertical fist. And the reason why we often see in forms like Wu-shu , a spearman does a one-handed thrust up on one leg .... my opponent ( with a bo) had backed off out of rage (so he thought ) ... that raised rear leg , in concert with an angled down from high position , one handed thrust , gains about 1 metre ..... got him right through the heart when he thought he was safe ! ( rubber tip of course )

I start each day with waking up, peeking out my eyelids to check and then ..... "My God ! I am STILL alive ! What a miraculous day ! Then I might do some kata .

1. A very new, young and nervous yellow belt in an open Shotokan tournament. I got matched against this black belt that was cleaning everyone up . He had massive long gangly limbs, long reach , was sticking his fist in people's faces and they could not hit him with side kick . He kept holding his arms out, nearly straight and jabbing at me . It annoyed me so I thought to attack what was annoying me and 'in my way ' . I stepped through with back leg, kicked his fist and followed through with a lunge punch to the face . I must have jarred a finger , he stopped hunched his shoulders lifted his arm and hand up and back and at the same time he moved his back foot forward and rose up a bit and moved forward a bit . Ref blasted his whistle, jammed his index fingers together ( two opposes forces meeting ) , flung one finger in the air then pointed at me "Ippon" ! - a one point win . He looked so furious the ref jumped between us to shield me . 2. Aikido ; A successful randori against 3 black belts with the 3 different weapons . I was white belt, but had been that for a long time - previously I had done very good training with old school akikai guys in various locations in Sydney. I moved to the country, no aikido. Then a club opened . Things seem to have degraded somewhat . Then some visiting black belts came for a seminar , one knew the guys I had trained with earlier and he asked me for how long - it was him that suggested I 'be allowed' to have a go when the seniors where playing randori . First they started going easy on me , after a bit it got real fun . 3.Very beautiful young lady , about half my age , the 'head turner' of the town and then, recently my new girl friend , turns up at training , says "I will wait for you outside darling ." Jaws drop, gawp ... stare incredulously.

Same here . Its a kids babysitting program . I expect it is because ... that is what modern karate IS - a school kids physical fitness system based on older karate. I dont do it for just that reason - especially nowadays . We visited a club in the nearby small city, three or four senior instructors and a herd of kids. One of the adults says to me ; " We might have different styles, but we are all in it for the same reason .... to help kids grow up to be good responsible adults . " Me ; " We dont have any kids in our club . " ..... just as well too , I would never teach kids stuff like that . Any quires , I say to send them to the town's Shotokan club . - I'll digress a bit ; we did have one 'kid' for a while, he was a senior at school, so not too young , he came from another club , in that nearby city . He wanted to train with us to learn , primarily, an ecu kata so he could 'do something different ' for his black belt examination, which they required . Many a conversation I had with his father about the costs they burdened them with . With us , he either paid $12 a lesson , or nothing if I took the class . I was always concerned with his 'form' , I noticed at times , when 'under pressure' ( a quicker or surprise attack, a difficult move, etc ) his r leg, when in a rear position seemed near paralyzed , ie, knee bent and turned inwards, heel up and ankle twisted, as if all the weight was on the other leg , as if he was 'protecting' and keeping weight off the right leg . He didnt do it when practicing kata or kihon , so I asked him " When you do a kata, does your instructor correct your 'form; stance ', position and balance ?" "Oh... all the time ." " And when you practice a bunkai, does he ever correct your footwork or leg position and stance ? " " No . " Strange , but the 'evidence' suggests that very thing . I kept pointing it out and suggested he correct it , but I guess, that was not what he was there for. The father is concerned and tells me how much he spent so far ; uniform, training sessions , club yearly payment , fees for each exam for each kyu , special 'training camps' , $150 for a previous black belt examination , but they failed him , and he still had to pay , this was his second attempt ... and money to buy (off them ) .... wait for it .... a hakama ! Me ; " An Hakama ? In karate . " Dad; " Yes, they can wear one for training after they become a black belt . " Anyway , I talked to his father about the left rear leg 'problem' but he didnt seem interested - I suppose he thought if it was not significant , otherwise the 'professional' instructors would have said something . Anyway, he got his black belt , I saw a film of his exam, which he did in his new hakama and doing our ecu kata and then demonstrating a couple of bunkais he learned from us with his instructor as partner ( who, nervously, was wearing a full kendo helmet ) He did a basic move , the crowd roared approval, he got his black belt . Then he vanished . I saw the father some months later and he was complaining about all the new charges again ..... what ? ! Apparently all that was for his JUNIOR black belt , and if he wants a full senior one ...... The last time I saw the father he was distraught . The lad got a bad disabling injury in a sparing competition . Me ; " Right leg ? " Yup ! now the kid has to have a big operation .... on something .... doc says 'No more karate for you ! " It will probably trouble him into the future as well . No more being a 'karate cash cow ' for him ! I dont know what the total money cost ended up to be .

I dont run 'dojo' as such but I have used it as a valuable tool to help some get around issues they have had with training . But I see it as a 'visualization tool' to help align , balance, root, extend , etc . Eg , one very slight woman was easily lifted by two strong guys, but when I got her to visualize certain 'ki aspects ' ( ) they had great trouble lifting her - weird thing was, they did get her feet little off the ground but then nothing - the people watching could actually see the guys straining, their muscles bulging, but nope . Eventually she opened her eyes, got a surprise that stopped her concentration and up she went with ease . Most observing where amazed and saw it as some mystical energy , but they knew little of 'multiple body mechanics interaction' .

So our official instructor has been away for about a month and I have been taking class . " You guys up for something different ? " - I got swamped ! They where very much up for that as pretty bored with endless repetition of things that have not changed that much in years ( except where I have manged to sneak stuff in ) " We need to get out of 'bunkai kindergarten' . .... YOU ! pick a kata " - he does . " You. pick a move from it and a bunkai ... and you, another , and you another . Right, practice them . " " Okay , you have faced off , bowed , got into ready position , one attacked , one defended/countered . NOW do it as you would start a spar ... the attacker move around a bit and feint a bit then attack . " They did that for a while . " Now, do the same but add this ; the attacker, try to stop their bunkai / counter . " Then after that ; groups of three ; two 'spar' ( say 'spar' but there are no rules or restrictions , except try to NOT injure your partner ) one observes ; " Use any of the four techniques and their bunkais ... of course all other sorts of things will happen but concentrate on looking, within all that , for an opportunity to apply one of those techniques . The third person is like a referee , observing and calling when he sees one of those techniques applied successfully . It started as a slow motion movement , after a bt we speeded up . A very enlightening exercise ! Some bunkais and moves where hopeless and easliy countered . Others where not . And the ones used in static bunkai practice ( ie against classic oi-tsuki, straight punch, that is left 'hanging out there ' ) where useless, as no one was punching like that in a 'spar' . ... except for me, a first .... to give them a better chance at applying one of those techniques . I think this is part of the problem ; people teach kata , then 'static' ( just standing there ) bunkai , then leap over all these other bridging exercises , into 'free spar ' , no wonder many of those techniques dont transfer . IMO its all about 'dancing around' (fighting ' as usual ' ... however you can AND THEN applying a technique when the opportunity presents itself . One problem with this is .... without the pain and pond down , people dont react properly - I mean , at one time I had one of them in a wrist lock / straight arm bar sort of thing, he was bent over and I was continually smacking him with a swinging wild round uppercut to the face ( not really, of course , we dont do comp MMA ) , I got bored and came in with knee to the ribs followed by a down elbow into his spine as he was going down . Thing is, he could have got me with a back kick after the first face punch ... but he didnt 'think to do that ' ..... I am pretty sure , after one or two more real ones ... he would have . Thats the thing .... if its not real, its not real ... if it is real ...... thats a bunch of sore and sorry club members afterwards ! Over the years I have had to take a few offs. once months , once a permanent injury .... and thats from NOT trying to hurt each other !

Yes, we were meaning two different things here so the wires got a little crossed. I was meaning someone on the ground but not knocked-out. That's a fair point. We tend to use it in a few different ways. Not surprising. MSSR Chinto is much different from the Chinto that Shobayashi does and I've seen at least 2 other ways since. Very possible, and that is the difficulty with talking about kata in a text based format. There's also the issue of the game of telephone that is learning karate, and the way that some people will morph a kata to make sense for their bodies. We run into this problem at my school. The founder was a very short man, and as such some of the techniques were very likely changed to make sense for him. In the change came a change in bunkai and the like and this is what he passed on. Now were at the place in the dojo of trying to translate those techniques back into something that makes sense as a lot of us are significantly taller than he was. Part of the fun of karate for sure, but definitely frustrating. Yes, its a difficult discussion without the visuals . The size thing is significant with us ; Mr N was short , but Ted ( Soken's student that bought the style to Australia ) was very tall . Still , there was significant OTHER differences . I see them as 'base style ' and 'family style' . Both seemed acceptable to Mr N.

So it looks like no one here ( in this thread , anyway ) moves backwards when practicing 'kihon' against an attack , or as a bunkai from a kata move . Shotokan seems to love doing it . And many other demos on youtube .

The example the comes to mind here is Gojushiho. In the Shobayashi iteration of it, there is the sequencing of the finger strikes, kick, punch, then a horse stance at 45 degrees where we scoop up the head (imagine grabbing hair) and then punch down. There is also the final move of Chinto (also Shobayashi) where the final move is expressly hitting a downed opponent by going to the knee and delivering a punch. There isn't much of this in Matsumura-Seito, but I've encountered quite a lot of it in Shobayashi. Ananku, in every version that I have learned, sets a cat stance in the first two shutos by stepping forward into a cat stance. Some versions of Wansu also end with setting a cat stance forward for the shutos. Pinan Shodan often steps forward into cat stance with shutos as well. Its probably a terminology issue ? I thought a 'downed opponent' is a finished one . Not a 'taken down ' one. But you probably mean when someone is 'lower' than you are ? Or they are 'on their way down ' and you sorta 'help them along ' . We have plenty of that , then after that, they are 'downed' . Plenty of kata moves are shuto going forward in cat stance too , but I dont see moving forward as 'setting' into cat stance . Its more of a circular motion with the front foot to get around the others lead foot . And as I said , we dont use shuto as a type of 'chop' or a 'block' ; its a short circular movement, in front, with both hands to 'get around' the others attacking arm and strike over the top of that arm to any weak point above their shoulder. And the Chinto I do ends nothing like you described , although there are two other occasions when you punch from a one knee kneeling position in the form of Gojoshiho that we do , but they are not directed downwards . There is a reason why they are done one one knee though , but it isnt to hit someone on the ground . I feel we are back in the place where many moves in kata may have lost their meaning during the transition from old traditional style to modern 'school style' just as the applications for basics did .

you might never punch a downed opponent by your feet but have you ever thought of the movement in a grappling context? Like say pulling and pushing someone down?I definitely don’t take it for granted that others think about karate the way I do. Even in my own organization I’m unique in my approach, much less my experience interacting with the wider karate community online. I used to love the karate culture FB page, then it got pretty big (by karate page standards) and a bunch people who had clearly never even had a sparring session with moderate power began posting…don’t remember his name but one was a major fraud with self published books talking about energy, and sharing videos of him demonstrating how defend against someone swinging a stick like object at your head (his partner used a bokken) where he simply just caught it with one hand and pulled it from their two handed grip lol. I can definitely relate to that ! We do a kata - Nabudhi Nagata ( sic ? only ever HEARD the name - never seen it else where ) . It supposed has staff disarming techniques . I wa shown some applications just like that ! he just pulled the staff away and hit the other with it . Ummmmm , yeah, but what if he ISNT your instructor and you decide NOT to hand it over compliantly ( which is what they are actually doing . OR one move showed a full powered forearm block against the incoming staff ! My protests where met with ' Well, some guys can break a bat over their arm ." - sigh - My response ; 'Go on then " . Well HE couldnt do that .... so what the hell was the point ? Neither can I . its been adapted so they DID work , eg I take the hit from the other side and everything flows smoothly with no force or shock ( to me that is ) and incorporates the sequence of the next few moves , resulting in a 'throw away' of the person with me left holding the staff .

Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike . 'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well ) Doing a 'wrong' move or bunkai will not make much sense or work . But thats my issue , doesnt seem to matter .... people will just keep on practicing it over and over , and teaching it to others to practice over and over . Which is fine , IF your sport is technical accurate reproduction of anothe'rs movements .

Not in the public forum. The ones in the public forum are more in the area of focusing on Hohan Soken and sometimes a young Nishihira is seen in them . The ones of Nishihira post Soken are private ones I have seen and collected . The '3 strikes you are out' technique' is against a more lumbering, swinging drunk type .... not a 'snappy boxer' * . The other one where the wrist is twisted to the outside, I already said I am skeptical of it IF the person does not do a 'tsuki' and leave there hand and arm sticking out there floating in the air (although I see this commonly in karate demos ) . * one guy shaped up boxing style to Nishihira , his response was to leap in from a distance with flying roundhouse kick (faint ) to his knee, as the guy stepped back and Nishihira kicked with the other leg into the inside of the other knee . ( a bit of an issue , the guy had to be hospitalized , some asked 'Why did you do that ?" " He want to fight me ! " It was explained that 'at home' if someone jumped around 'at you ' like that they where 'inviting you to SPAR with them ' . - personally I think it was an 'impoliteness issue ' - he should have bowed first and then asked if Mr N would spar with him for training purposes . If you are not familiar with him ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira