SevenStar

umm, as with any fight anything is possible. Although in a street fight karate strikes are much more effective. Boxers train to throw heavy punches to inflict damage with a glove on.

surely you realize that those punches hurt even more without gloves...

Karate students are supposed to train to throw accurate breaking punches, elbows, knees, kicks etc. The karate student would also have an advantage because it is possible that he is trained to fight a boxer.

if the karateka has never boxed, he can't possibly be trained to fight a boxer, can he? he may be familiar with the techniques, but likely not the tactics. Also, as you said - they are SUPPOSED to train to throw deadly techniques. but there is a difference between theory and application.

While the boxer probably has no training to fight a karate student. The boxer should have the edge on conditioning however if properly trained the karate student should understand economy of motion and not tire as quickly.

not true. Adrenaline dump can get anyone equally...

Any proper street fight shouldnt last more than a minute or so. Rarely will a street fight last as long as a boxing match or probably even a boxing round unless there are multiple participants.

see above about adrenaline dump. it wears you down fast. in many cases, less than a minute. Also, I've seen SEVERAL street fights that have lasted longer than a minute. Once again, theory vs application.

Boxers are also used to fighting in their weight division so fighting outside of it may throw them off, while a karate student doesnt share the same problem.

tell me you aren't serious....If you are, try it out - find a local full contact event and enter it. Tell the promoter you want to fight in a weight class above yours. Then you will see why there weight classes. there is a difference between full contact and light contact when it comes to size advantage. size WILL matter, given that skill level is equal. The more skilled you are than him, the less of a factor it will be, but if you are equal, his size will give you hell.

So a good karate fighter vs a good boxer in a street fight with luck and chaos being out of the equation. The fighter will win as he is trained to fight.

 

A good boxer vs a karate fighter in a boxing ring. The boxer will win as he is trained to box.

gag me...

I believe as a martial art karate (and kung fu for that matter) is far more superior to boxing. When I say karate I am referring to real traditional karate training not Mcdojo karate and/or commercialized "get your black belt quick" hybreeds.

 

I do agree with a previous posters comment that karate takes longer to master or be effective at. But once you are effective at a real traditional karate style then you should have no trouble in desposing of a an effective boxer. Traditional training in karate is "blood and guts" training and this type of training is not the exclusive only to kyokushinkai(a style that I admire and respect).

 

The trouble with karate is that it has been watered down and this applies to even some of the tougher schools. Most "anti-traditionalists" will use Mcdojo karate when making comparisons with boxing, bjj or MMA's, where of course the Mcdojos would loose out and deservedly so.

 

KungFuMan

I'm not referring to McDojo karate... I'm referring to "blood and guts" training, as you put it. Also, kyokushinkai in recent times has been influenced quite a bit by thai boxing.

a fair point.. I have a feeling the whole sucker punch from behind thing is neither here nor there right now. It's kind of an abnormality in this discussion; you can't do much of ANYTHING if you are going to be punched from behind without your knowledge, much less try to think about avoiding the hit or being willing to take the hit to give one back.

I think so as well. I only commented since it was brought up.

also (going back to: avoid being hit? being hit to hit? question..):

 

It's also possible that at this stage in my training I would MUCH rather not take a hit to give one.. odds are, whoever I might be fighting against is much bigger than me (I'm only 5'10" 130) or will hit much harder than me.. so taking one of their hits to give one of my own is relatively pointless at this stage in my training, I haven't developed my power sufficiently yet.

I'm not advocating taking a hit to give a hit. I'm advocating being comfortable taking a hit. I stated that the guy in the example had the right idea - he was obviously comfortable taking hits. And, he did so in order to land a shot of his own. Ideally, you don't want to take a hit, but chances are, you probably will. If you are only training to not get hit - a la light contact sparring - you are IMO disadvantaging yourself as you are not becoming comfortable with the feeling of being hit.

I still disagree (once again, possibly because of the level I am currently at).. I still have the feeling that if you take a bad enough shot, it is still very difficult to "roll with the punch"..

you roll as you are being hit. in some arts, it's known as absorption. it's to minimize to minimize the effect of the blow.

Learning to recognize pain as part of fighting? That's realistic.. but you are not really going to be able to learn how to take punches you'd see in a realistic fight situation unless you are in one (which I wish upon no one).

that's what the ring is for. I think it would benefit all martial artists to at some point do at least one full contact and/or mma match. it's an exercise in fighting against a fully resisting opponent.

anytime. I'll try to find some links. In a nutshell, the old school jj guys maintained that randori was an unnecessary part of training and that kata and drills were all that was needed. Kano, on the other hand, was afirm believer in randori. A challenge ensued between kano's group and the police jujutsu team in 1885. kano's group won every match.

In 1886, another tournament was organized, this time against the yoshin ryu, which was considered the stronget jj group in japan at the time. Of the 15 matches, kano's group won 12, lost 2 and had one draw.

If you're about to get thrown, for example a shoulder throw, you can slide into a horse stance and drop your weight and most likely you won't get thrown.

remember, a person adept in throwing will throw in combinations, no different from how a striker will punch in combinations. When you drop and lower your base, you are spreading your legs open - and I already have your arm. I will turn into you and throw you with a ko uchi gari - minor inner reap. Or, I may shoot my leg directly back between your legs and use a modified shoulder throw.

grabbing the arm is last step? It's first step for us, grab, jerk of balance, hips, under, balance, throw.

he meant trapping the arm. You grab the arm, kazushi, step in and turn, lowering your hips under him, then trap the arm. from there, spring your hips up and throw.

Kumite is not without value, as it does stress timing and control of space and movement, but creates one strong challenge. You will do, in combat, what you have done with repetition in training. If your rules of engagement do not allow full force contact, your reflexive techniques will lack force and/or control.

I think that is the issue here - many people are thinking in terms of light contact point sparring. I am speaking from a full contact perspective.

If your rules of engagement restrict target areas, you will probably fail to make use of very effective techniques utilizing them, when under stress.

on the other hand, if you are doing the techniques full force but on an imaginary opponent, you may not have the timing, distancing, etc. to pull off your techniqeus when you need to when under stress. I fail to see what you mean by "fail to make use of very effective techniques" - if I can KO you with a hook punch, it was more effective than the eye gouge (for example) that missed it's target...

Let's not forget that the Masters from which many of the more popular styles have been handed down did not use what we recognize as Kumite. Most had nothing more than Kata and repetition training with tools like a Makiwara to hone their arts.

Let's not forget that the jujutsu masters did the same thing - and that they were schooled when kano and his judo guys went against them...

not necessarily. This is where the term "roll with the punches" comes from. you have to learn to absorb shots in various ways. By knowing how to deal with the hit, you are better apt to NOT get knocked out by that forst puch which connects...

 

Except for when you are sucker punched from behind...

in which case, him focusing on not getting hit wouldn't have helped either...

unless they are equal on a technical level. In that case the one with the best strength and stamina has the advantage.

eh... ill do em enyways.

by all means, do them. My only point in that post was that you can't really call them keys to a stronger punch, because they aren't...

But to be honest, I didn't like the training we did in Muay Thai that much. Why? I would like to train in a way that has less risk of injury (ie not taking knees to the fact so we can learn how to take knees...I don't know if it is even possible to "take" a knee to the head in a real fight). We had a lot of contact. Another guy that trains with us had his arm broken while doing BJJ.

nothing wrong with hard contact. The key is to train properly. it sounds like you may not have been. Also, for the school's sake, if they compete, training knees to the face aren't a good idea, as they aren't allowed in north american thai matches. As far as the guy whose arm got snapped, either he didn't tap in time, or the guy he was rolling with was very uncontrolled - like a newb.

maybe cross training in boxing technique and/or BJJ techique only to avoid injuries?

you really won't learn that way... if you're gonna go that route, it would server you better to just stick with isshin only.

ikt hasn't been watered down. Actually, it's probably been improved. the SBG guys probably have one of the most practical approaches around. vunak is another. down are you referring to?

as far as mastery goes - will you every really master your art? If so, how long will it take? waiting until mastery - which may never even happen - is not necessary. You should have a solid foundation, however.

yeah tai otoshi is another very popular throw.

i think all you guys saw the movie "only the strong" to much.

 

think about it first.

 

Its funny you bring this up. My sifu is the guy in the dreads fighting with knives.

the guy dacascos beat up on the school courtyard? cool.

1.) Isometrics

 

2.) weightlifting

 

4.) Hand toughening

 

5.) speed bags (for speed of course)

there are actually unnecessary. isometrics, are inferior to other methods of strength training anyway. As far as weightlifting, it helps, but is not necessary for a strong punch. Hitting the heavy bag is sufficient. speed bags are also unnecessary. There are fighters that never tough a speed bag. those teach you basic coordination and to keep your hands up - I can do that with a heavy bag or focus mitts... hand toughening is the byproduct of heavy bag training. there is no need to do any extra training for this.

which is the style that tony jaa fights with?

boran.

for some reason, i really dont consider it a martial art, and thew reason why is because i trained in tkd for 4 yrs and i stopped it becasue it became boring to me and i ddint learn alot and i needed a hard core style, so i took up muay thai and i fell in love, now to me a martial art is having forms and doing like one step techniqques which i dont think are really effective on the street, muay thai to me is excellent, we make it reality, we dont try to block every punch that comers at us because w eknow it would b nearly impossible so i just dont liek to consider it a martial art. just my opiniopn

the difference is evolution. MT changed with the times to suit what it needed as opposed to holding on to things merely for traditions sake. A MARTIAL art is any art that can be used in warfare... I've always hated the delinneation between MA and sport MA. it's all the same. the difference is how some styles are trained, IMO.

roundhouse kick - arcing kick... you have alot you can do with this one.

if it comes to the midsection, catch the kick and slide to the side as you do so in order to minimize impact. Once you have caught his leg, you can step in and sweep him.

if the kick is high, just duck. that may be safest. another thing you can do - if it's a follow through roundhouse (a la muay thai) as opposed to a snapping one is to step back slightly and let it pass by you. use your hands to shove the kick past, exposing his back to you. Another thing you can do is step in - crod his space. the roundhouse is an arcing kick - if you step in, you will impact it before it reaches the height of its power and it won't hurt. In addition, you have the opportunity to off balance him.

with the sidke kick, sidestep it. either that or rush in to jam him. it's a straight line kick though, so rushing in on it will be harder than stepping in on a roundhouse.

I would very much consider muay thai a martial art, as well as a martial sport. The older stuff wasn't "more of a martial art", it was merely more traditional.

I also think one of the reasons is beacuase kicking in a fight is for "pussies" but i think that is only youth think that.

nah, that's just a school yard thing, mainly. And it really no longer applies. these days, when someone knocks a person down in a fight, what do they do? kick and stomp on them... I witnessed a friend of mine kick a guy off of the back of a moving school bus, and he had no MA training whatsoever.

Yeah i always been wondering it my self though. Anyway back on topic I heard that Muay Thai is as popular as Baseball,Football amd Hockey combined in Thailand but in The States and Canada I dont have a clue why its not popular.

it's a cultural thing. thai boxing is their national sport - baseball is ours. If you go to china, most of them have never hear of UFC oor pride. different cultures, different interests...

not necessarily. This is where the term "roll with the punches" comes from. you have to learn to absorb shots in various ways. By knowing how to deal with the hit, you are better apt to NOT get knocked out by that forst puch which connects...

I wouldn't do them as much as possible everyday - many people have gotten rotator cuff injuries and other various repettitive stress injuries that way. You do want to do them regularly though.

here's some info about a few of the old styles:

http://www.ancientmuaythai.com/styles/muay_thai.htm