GreenDragon

Thank you all very much for your feedback. Let me clear up a misconception. I did not say that he would promise or guarantee an certain rank in a certain amount of time. I said that I would choose a program based on my goal and he would help me reach that goal. If the goal is green belt, etc. etc. I am quite sure that he would fail a student if they did not know the material. As a matter of fact one night while I was there about a week before a testing day he chastisied a young fella and told this kid that he clearly didn't know his hyong (forms) and that if he did not come to class every day for the rest of the week to learn them properly, he would not pass his belt test (we can attend up to 6 classes per week). I have every confidence in his ability to teach me all I would need to know in the typical time frame and in my ability to learn it slightly faster than that. I do not doubt his integrity at all, and do not believe him to be selling belts, however the fact that he calls his 1 year membership agreement a "green belt program" could certainly lead one to think that way. Probably not a good idea to call it that. So what does that leave me with...the cold reality that it is just a business decision that allows him a certain level of financial security and legally binds me to a decision I had already committed to anyway. Although most gyms and many dojos/dojangs do this, it just doesn't feel right for me. Given my current job situation (unpredicatable demands for insane amounts of overtime, and the ever-present chance of being layed off) I just can not legally bind myself to continue putting food on his table should my family begin to grow hungry. I have decided to tell him that I would very much enjoy continuing to study under him, but can not sign a contract, if he is willing to make an exception for me, then I am there, if not, I will have to continue my quest. Thank you again, GreenDragon

What do you all know of a style called dragon (or wind fist) Kung Fu? Please give comparisons to hard styles like karate and comparisons to soft styles like Northern Mantis Kung Fu. GreenDragon

I am not an instructor, but would opinions from instructors, so I am posting this here. I just finished the trial two week period at a Tang Soo Do dojang. The head instructor teaches every class, takes care to make sure everyone is "getting it" and even though he is retiring from the military to open the dojang to more day classes so he can make a living off of it, he will not offer any other arts. He said he wants to keep the dojang pure, not a buffet of martial arts. Although this is somewhat discouraging because he is also a 2nd degree blackbelt in Gumdo (? a korean sword art) and I would love to learn that too, it is an encouraging sign that he puts the integrity of his primary art before the potential to make more money off of a variety. I have visited and researched many schools in my area and this one is certainly the best. Then last night after my two week trial period, I start talking with him about the price to continue, etc. and he hits me with the contract proposal, arrrgh! After checking out and responding to a recent McDojo thread, I have to wonder...does this make him a McDojang? McDonalds doesn't try to rope you into some long term commitment. So why is a contract seen as such a negative thing that it gets mentioned as being an attribute of a McDojo. Does the comparison to McDonalds matter at this point? No. But I am concerned about the negative image a contract has on this site vs. the positive spin my intructor tried to put on it last night. He maintained that he would never take anyone to court over it and if there are legitamite circumstances he would work with his students to work it out, so that is why he didn't like it when I called it a contract. He called it an agreement, that helps to ensure commitment. He makes the commitment to the student to help them reach whatever goal they set, but he wants the student to make a commitment to the instructor to meet those goals. If the goal is to become a green belt , the "agreement" is that based on what he saw in me in class he commits to me that we can achieve the goal of green belt in one year and I'd pay a $65 per month. Goal of Red belt, 2 years $60 per month, black belt, 3 years $55 per month. Definately some long term income stream marketing going on there. Which for some reason makes me think negatively, "scammer!" etc. On the other hand, I have been extremely impressed with the quality of instruction, every student I have met is very happy and as I have also seen mentioned on this site (not with regards to the ethics of a contract) that this is a business and I should expect some basic marketing concepts to come in to play. Please give me your thoughts on this, I just left a Dojo that had no contract and absolutely no value... GreenDragon

I just finished the trial two week period at a Tang Soo Do dojang. The head instructor teaches every class, takes care to make sure everyone is "getting it" and even though he is retiring from the military to open the dojang to more day classes so he can make a living off of it, he will not offer any other arts. He said he wants to keep the dojang pure, not a buffet of martial arts. Although this is somewhat discouraging because he is also a 2nd degree blackbelt in Gumdo (? a korean sword art) and I would love to learn that too, it is an encouraging sign that he puts the integrity of his primary art before the potential to make more money off of a variety. I have visited and researched many schools in my area and this one is certainly the best. Then last night after my two week trial period, I start talking with him about the price to continue, etc. and he hits me with the contract proposal, arrrgh! After checking out and responding to a recent McDojo thread, I have to wonder...does this make him a McDojang? McDonalds doesn't try to rope you into some long term commitment. So why is a contract seen as such a negative thing that it gets mentioned as being an attribute of a McDojo. Does the comparison to McDonalds matter at this point? No. But I am concerned about the negative image a contract has on this site vs. the positive spin my intructor tried to put on it last night. He maintained that he would never take anyone to court over it and if there are legitamite circumstances he would work with his students to work it out, so that is why he didn't like it when I called it a contract. He called it an agreement, that helps to ensure commitment. He makes the commitment to the student to help them reach whatever goal they set, but he wants the student to make a commitment to the instructor to meet those goals. If the goal is to become a green belt , the "agreement" is that based on what he saw in me in class he commits to me that we can achieve the goal of green belt in one year and I'd pay a $65 per month. Goal of Red belt, 2 years $60 per month, black belt, 3 years $55 per month. Definately some long term income stream marketing going on there. Which for some reason makes me think negatively, "scammer!" etc. On the other hand, I have been extremely impressed with the quality of instruction, every student I have met is very happy and as I have also seen mentioned on this site (not with regards to the ethics of a contract) that this is a business and I should expect some basic marketing concepts to come in to play. Please give me your thoughts on this, I just left a Dojo that had no contract and absolutely no value... GreenDragon

I recently left what I came to realize was a McDojo. They have several locations in my town and are what my new instructor would call a buffet style Dojo. The several locations...seemingly a franchise, like McDonalds would be a good excuse to call them a McDojo. But there is more to it. In trying to be the buffet style, they hop on the bandwagon of the latest "in demand" art that can help them make money. Like McDonalds...hmm big expensive salads are selling well at Wendy's, let's sell them too. This place was teaching Karate, Aikido, cardio kickboxing, and most recently has a guy coming in once a week to teach Krav Maga (probably fresh off of a three day seminar in which he became a certified instructor). McDojo certainly applies to a place where you come in, order something, pay for it and get a product of questionable quality that technically matches what you ordered. "I'll have a burger" - you get one quickly but it ain't that great. "I'll take a blackbelt" - again you get it quickly and it ain't that great...and you may not need to be charged a lot to have gotten ripped off. The dojo I was at had reasonable rates, no contract and no value. I learned at my first belt test that I had not been taught with any care or attention to detail when the head instructor (whom I normally didn't train with) had to teach me the correct way to do most of the basics just so I could get my belt. Seems the other instructor was just giving me the cheap burger that I had paid for, so I was out the door after the first couple bites. GreenDragon

Although Aikido, juijitsu and Judo are very different from each other, they are much more similar to each other than they are similar to something like karate or Kung Fu. Chances are that if you didn't like Judo, you probably won't much like aikido or juijitsu. But then again, it does depend very much on the instructor and classroom setting. Keep in mind, generally a *do (judo, aikido) is going to be more of an "art" that will attempt to develop you as a person, and an *itsu (juijitsu) will focus more on the fighting aspect and very little on the spiritual or anything else. If you liked muay thai, then you probably would like a hard art that is very no nonsense. That is why it is confusing that you say you would prefer kung fu, depending on the style, it can be taught as a very soft art. Karate and kung fu probably would not suit you as you are probably not used to doing forms and they might seem tedious and boring if crossing over from something as combat oriented as muay thai. I would suggest a visit to the second school you mentioned. As long as the kickboxing they do is not cardio kickboxing, it would be a good crossover. If it is american kickboxing, that will be a good transition, you will just need to remember no kicks below the waist in sparring. At that school you could throw in some bjj and be very well rounded...as you have probably heard on this site a great deal of real life fights end up on the ground so you may want to be ready if you ever end up down there. GreenDragon

Tell us again what is available in your area. You kind of mashed a whole bunch of styles into one sentence there and it was hard to tell if you meant those were all different schools availble or if it was one school that tries to teach all of those things. If you've got someone teaching Hapkido, I would recommend that, it seems like a very complete art. But of course it depends on the school and the instructor. The Hapkido in my town is way across town and very expensive, and the instructor sounded like a jerk on the phone, not very helpful, so I ended up going wih Tang Soo Do instead. GreenDragon

Kam sa hom ni da. I fear no debate, bring the heat, flame on!! I'm joking , the kid has a good point. Logic can be lost when shrouded by emotion...and I may have gone a little too far at the end while making my point. I apologize to anyone whom I may have offended. *bows* GreenDragon

I probably shouldn't even get involved in this because I don't break or have a preference. However, the flawed logic of the statement above weakens the case of the person making the statement. "Boards don't hit back" followed by a recommenation for another object that does not hit back (a bag) is not well thought out. Additionally I have seen pointed out many times in this thread that the board is NOT used as a training tool, but is a method of testing other training methods for accuracy and power. It is easy to strike a bag as hard as you can to train for power, and it is easy to strike something moderately hard and accurately, but to hit something VERY hard with GREAT accuracy is more difficult. So, it sounds logical that every once in a great while you try to strike something that requires great power and accuracy at the same time to produce the desired result. It is a test that gauges the efficiency of your training and influences future training. Knowing that you are going to have to break a board in a few months may incent the MAist to concentrate more on being powerful AND accurate during everyday training when striking a bag. And on a side note that is interestingly related. Mauy Thai fighters are considered tough. Even by people who do not train in MT, the MT fighters are acknowledged to be great fighters whose training and conditioning are respected on this site. And the most hard core MT fighters are considered the best and most well conditioned. I have read in many places that this hard core conditioning is made up of whacking their shin bones against hard objects that do not hit back in order to condition them. This behaviour is not frowned upon, but is met with awe and respect. So why then is a Korean fighter so frowned upon for striking a board once every several months just to test their skills. Is this just a case of more Korean art bashing? Why aren't some of you over on the Mauy Thai forum telling them how useless it is for them to use rolling pins on their shins because any MAist can produce a KO kick without using rolling pins on their shins. Or better yet, go to any forum, pick something they do for training and make a case for why it is not necessary, forms would be a good place to start...or try this, "You don't need to train in any martial art at all because the thug down the street can knock you out and he doesn't train in any martial art." GreenDragon

I did take the class last night. Extremely organized. Very exhausting. Very traditional, Mr/Miss, sir, even showed me as I was leaving the way I had to fold up my uniform. He explained everything very well. I left breathing heavy and impressed. I think this is going to work out great. Thank you again for your responses. Go Mahp Soom Nee Dah. Tang Soo! GreenDragon

I am going to the dojang tonight for my first class, but today I read a post on a different site and was wondering what your opinion about it is (the post was somewhat discouraging): "I am an ex tang soo do practioner (very similar to TKD) and it is very strong and effective AT LONG RANGE. 95 percent of fights end up on the ground and what happens if they get in close on you? you can't kick someone from 6 inches. i'd recommend american kenpo or jiujitsu. both of these styles will teach you effective ways of defending yourself with every possible weapon your body possesses, especially american kenpo, and will teach you how to effectively defend yourself without having to take the initiative in attacking which often leads to serious legal consequences." What do you think. Is this a load of rubbish, would I be able to be effective at close range and in potentially real life fighting situations? GreenDragon

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

Very direct method...very modern, no katas or forms. Street fighting and self defense oriented. Spelled Krav Maga. Check out https://www.kravmaga.com, lots of good info there. GreenDragon

Hiya, Thx for posting. So what do you think of Jino Kim and his father? The dojang is called J. Kim Tang Soo Do, I will be training in one of their locations in Tucson. Since I am just leaving a McDojo, I am a bit concerned that J. Kim TSD has more than one location. What do you know about them, anything? GreenDragon

This is a paste job from this link: http://www.psmag.org/tangsoowho.html In 1945, Korea gained its independence from Japan. During this period, native martial artists who had fled returned to Korea with new ideas and techniques. Many new organizations were established in an attempt to revive Korean martial arts. Hwang Dee, who had been exiled for a while, but return to Korea to open his first Tang Soo Do Dojang on November 9, 1945, headed one such organization. At the time, five other major marital arts schools were established, and efforts were being made to make a uniform organization. After the Korean War (1950-1955), the Korean government became involved in unifying all dojangs, and this effort resulted in an organization call the Tae Soo DO Association (1961), which joined with the official Korean Amateur Sports Association in the same year. This was a major turning point in transforming Tae Soo DO into a national sport from traditional martial arts. However, there were many martial arts practitioners who wanted to remain traditionalist, and referred to the traditional art as "Tang Soo Do".

Erik, I too am trying to decide, after having gone to a karate Mcdojo for about a month a realizing the error of my ways. Soo Bahk Do as I understand it is the new name Korea has designated for Tang Soo Do. I hear they gave it the new name to reflect the fact that it has evolved a bit. But I suspect the real reason is that they have never liked the "Tang" being an original homage to it's roots and the Tang dynasty (in China). So, if you want to research Soo Bahk Do, you may have an easier time finding information if you searched for information on Tang Soo Do. Personally, these two styles are highest on my list (along with Krav Maga, but that is a very far drive for me, not practical). Kempo and Tang Soo Do/Soo Bak Do seem to both be fairly modern versions of traditional styles from China and Japan. For me the thing that is tipping the scales in favor of Tang Soo Do is the price (seems that every Kenpo dojo in my town is very expensive, some to the tune of twice what the Tang Soo Do Dojang charges). The other thing that is tipping the scales in favor of Tang Soo Do is that I am trying to get a decent cardio workout as part of class and the Tang Soo Do class spends the entire first half hour of every class on warm-up then fairly intense drilling of the techniques, everyone was sweating and breathing heavy in the class I watched. The Kenpo class, on the other hand told me that sometimes they work up a sweat when doing sparring. But the details, like this will vary from school to school, I suggest a visit to each. The most important thing is not the particular art, but the way the class is run and the expertise as well as regular attendance of the Master. Some dojos/dojangs have student teachers running most classes. Make sure this is not the case. Other points of interest...Soo Bahk Do is a Korean art, you will be learning a little bit of Korean. Some Kempo schools will just use english and in others you may learn a little Japanese. Korean arts like Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwan Do do board breaking as part of the training and it is required for belt progression at mid thru high levels. If you don't like the idea of blasting a board you may not want to choose Soo Bahk Do, as that may be the case for them as well. Again check out the school (that is the single most important piece of information I can give you). GreenDragon

I know some people find forms unnecessary and some people's opinion is that they are indispensable. There are already plenty of threads discussing that, we don't need another...what I am looking to do is compile a comprehensive list of arts that do not teach/require forms. So far I have: Boxing Kickboxing Mauy Thai Krav Maga I'm sure there are more, so lay em on me. GreenDragon

Thanks everybody, I'm going to give it a try. Seems like TSD is not the most popular art, but those who try it or are lucky enough to have it in their area like it a lot. Sounds like a bit of a hidden gem, a well kept secret, ect. But it is kind of a bummer that most sites that have individual forums for each art don't even have one for TSD. GreenDragon

They have this thing where I can pay $29 and come an unlimited amount of time for two weeks to see if I like it. I think that is what I will do. A trial period I guess, comes with a free uniform...a lotta good that does me if I decide I don't like it. I'm already going to have a useless gi from the McDojo. But this really does look like the one. GreenDragon _____________________________________________________ One minute, I was a happy space pirate, looting and pillaging, and then POOF! I'm as dumb as a door nail.

Laurie, Yup that's the one. So many Kims, S.K. Kim, J. Kim, C.S. Kim. Kim must be to Korea as Smith is to America. GreenDragon

Yeah, I thought about kickboxing...in my area there are two flavors, cardio-kickboxing and Mauy Thai. The cardio version does not interest me because I would not be learning any self defense (it would be a good suppliment to a MA program, but on it's own it's not much more than an aerobics class). The Mauy Thai is way across town and is quite expensive. The Muay Thai place is "interesting". They are the only place in town progressive enough to teach all the "hot" MAs like Muay Thai and Krav Maga, but they are also progressive enough to charge $100 USD per month ($90 if you sign a 1 year contract and only *insert sarcasm* $80 if you sign a two year cotract). Doesn't sound like the school for me. Well, I don't want to hi-jack my own thread by getting it off topic... GreenDragon

Hi all, New guy here. I am unhappy with my current dojo (Shuri Ryu) and am strongly considering switching to a Tang Soo Do dojang. The classes at the dojo are very unstructured and many days I don't even break a sweat. Part of my interest in martial arts is to get at least some kind of a work-out while attending. I tested for my white belt the other day and the head instructor (who is good at structuring the class and is an excellent teacher, but is only teaching once a week) pointed out a whole heck of a lot of things whong with the technique I had been taught by the other instructor. Although he did give me the whte belt, I was ultimately discouraged by the fact that he had to re-teach us so many of the basics. So I visit this dojang. The head instructor was trained in Korea and teaches every class, 5 nights a week, if I think I can make it that often. The first half of every class is some stretching and warm up followed by what appeared to be some fairly intense drilling, everyone in the class looked very tired. I had to leave and didn't get to see the second half of class, but he said depending on the night, it may be self defense, forms, etc. So far I like the sound of it and now that I am healed from a leg injury suffered at the dojo during some unstructured experimentation with techniques beyond our level I think I will want to switch. Sound like a good idea? Tang Soo Do good stuff? It is a J. Kim TSD dojang (Master Jino Kim, the son of Song-Ki Kim). Is that a good thing? Is this J. Kim someone any of you have heard of? Apparently the usual Saturday belt testing in the middle of this month at the Tang Soo Do dojang has been moved to Monday to accomodate a "special" guest all the way from Korea. The newsletter said he was grandmaster Song-Ki Kim. Is this person an important figure in Tang Soo Do? Would it be worth it to leave work early to attend and meet him even though I am sure I would not be testing? GreenDragon