GreenDragon

Hello everybody, thanx for the warm welcomes I love guitars! I used to play bass guitar in a band and now I just play my acoustic guitar when I'm in the mood. "As the world does turn And if london burns I’ll be standing on the beach with my guitar I wanna be in a band When I get to heaven Anyone can play guitar......and they won’t Be a nothing anymore" - Radiohead, 1993

There was a thread similar to this just a bit down the page in this forum called "Reasons for everyone's avatar". Since my avatar is just a visual of my screen-name, you can find the reason for my screen name and many others here: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8045&start=10 I also posted the fun personality quiz that helped me come up with my screen-name in that thread.

Hey kid, I think the thread you might have been thinking of was under general chat and it was called reasons for your avatar. Anyone who has a picture/avatar usually has one that matches their name so it sounded much like a discussion about their screen-name.

Everything you do affects everything you do. And please stop using all those angry icons, it is annoying to the people you are trying to get to participate in your poll.

Beginners, I can't stress enough the importance of purchasing a quality groin protector (cup, etc.). I got one with the rest of my gear thinking that if I ever decided to attend the BJJ taught at my Muay Thai school I would really need it. Well I never have taken the time to go to the BJJ class, but have been wearing it to my Muay Thai class to get used to it and "just in case". Well, on Monday night I took three separate shots to the groin off of poorly executed foot jabs during some friendly training drills. If you spar or train with a partner, a groin protector is an absolute must.

This was news to me. It is probably due to cultural and linquistic misunderstandings. First of all, English is not my native language, just something I picked up in school. Second, where I come from, "Jack-of-all-trades" isn't loaded with any negative feel, it is just the opposite of specialization. Some people specialize, others become the jack-of-all-trades. If it has a negative meaning in some other countries, cultures or languages, then I was unaware of that. I don't think it is the "Jack of all trades" part that is potentially offensive, it is the second part of that phrase "master of none" that some might take offense to. Like I said, I agree with the phrase and find it to be a good description, but just wanted to point out that some others might have taken exception to it. And I think your english is much better than many for whom it is their native language. Well spoken!

Younameit, lol. I thought about that for a second. Well yeah, there are local tournaments for those things you mentioned. But not only are there local tournaments for TKD, it is an olympic sport. You can bet the world champs of TKD spend a lot more time than I ever could. Every TKD instructor in my town spends more time than I could at it, are they world champs, no...local champs, maybe. I doubt this person you know that only studied for a couple years in TKD is the world olympic champion, but that is what you are equating it to when you mention an MMA competitor winning the UFC. There are local NHB circuits and I am sure a very strong and talented quick learning person could study MMA for a couple years and do well on their local circuit. But would not have a chance at the UFC anymore than your 2 yrs experienced TKD friend could expect to win olympic gold. So maybe TKD is not the best example...true there is no champ of the world type competition for Shotokan. But that does not make the local Shotokan champ any more or less of a champ than the local MMA champ that studied for the same amount of time.

I dunno, I thought your #4 option hit the nail on the head for me. I like to see polls like this, the results are interesting. So what if you didn't make it perfect, you can't please all the people all of the time. Thx for the poll.

First I will answer the poll: I like mastering one aspect. At my school BJJ is offered in addition the the MT I take. But I don't have time for MT and BJJ. Sure, I could skip a night of MT and pick up a night of BJJ, but I feel like I'd be cheating myself out of getting better at MT. Just a personal opinion thing at this time in my life, maybe later when I feel more proficient at MT I will try some BJJ, who knows. However, Kirves, had you kept it simple, you might not have had two pages of debate. By loading the question with your personal opinion, you made the question inflamatory to people who would choose MMA. In a minor way by calling it a jack of all trades (although I agree with this phrase, some may not) and in a major way by saying this: "a champ in one of the "incomplete" arts, or a "joe-average" in some MMA club in your town." Someone could easily spend all their available time trying to perfect one art and never become a champ. The hobbyist as you claimed this poll was referring to would almost certainly not become a champ. If this hobbyist decides to be a jack why would they have to be joe-average? If a specialist can become a champ, why couldn't the MMA artist rise to be an MMA champ or a highly sought after MMA instructor, etc.? This is where your opinion became obvious, and caused your post to go astray by becoming inflamitory. You would have been better served by simply asking if people would rather devote all their available time to one incomplete art or divide their time between multiple arts, but clearly you still would not have made Andrew happy because he insists that he is learning one complete art called MMA. Andrew, MMA stands for Multiple Martial Arts. No matter how well someone tries to present it to you as one complete system it is in fact several systems blended and Kirves is right in his assessment that you will be dividing your time between learing those different aspects of your one complete system. You said it yourself, an MMA pratitioner will not be as good at boxing as a boxer. That is all there is to Kirves' question. So what if an MMAist could beat a boxer using MMA rules...a boxer would beat an MMAist using boxing rules. This post was not meant to decide which is better, just who prefers which approach. Oh, and the chess analogy is interesting. Andrew, you see the whole world of martial arts as a game of chess where boxing would be like using a couple pieces. Here is a different persective. All martial arts are a different olympic sport. Maybe eskrima is shot putt, jujitsu is javelin throwing, karate is long jump, etc. Now, would you rather spend all your available time training the long jump and go for the gold in that one thing or would you rather split your time between learning to do several to become a complete olympian and potentially be an even bigger star? That is all there is to this. And if you insist on seeing a fight as a game of chess, I can speak of chess from experience. Most people have no idea how to use their knights effectively, even fewer people know when the right time to castle is and as easy as it may seem, pawn movement is a very deep part of the game that almost no-one spends time thinking about or training with. My point is that even in chess most people get by without being complete chess players and if you were to learn how to use each and every piece as effectively as the next, you would not be as good at using your knights and as someone who concentrates on knights and a queen as being their main attackers. And yes, you just might still lose to this knight specialist.

True that it is just a stand up striking art. But that is why most schools that teach MT also teach Brazilian Jujitsu. At my school I am lucky enough to have a teacher that also takes a 1/2 hour at the end of class to show us specific techniques for street defense (like the correct way to defend and counter a knife attacker or an attacker with a blunt weapon like a bat or a stick). He used to be an MP in the military. Why are most MT fighters (on this discussion board) so arrogant? I suspect it is for two reasons: 1) MT happens to have an excellent track record of winning in ring matches against other stand up arts. Personally, I don't even know how important that is these days because it always seems to be a grappler that wins in the UFC. But there is plenty of documentation to support these claims when an arrogant MT fighter wants to rub everyone elses nose in it. 2) Because of the rigorous training one receives in a MT class, the MT practitioner begins to feel very tough. I can speak from experience. Although I am enough of a beginner at it that I am still humbled by more advanced students, on a personal level, I can now handle taking kicks that hurt me quite badly when I first started. It is the taking of these hits and feeling less and less pain while the power of your own strikes improves that makes you feel tougher. I did not get this feeling when in Karate or Tang Soo Do. So based on my own personal experience it would be easy for me to think that MT is superior for training to fight, and it is how I handle this thought that will make me appear humble or arrogant. Those who handle it in an arrogant manner were probably arrogant before they took up MT and now MT just gives them one more thing to be arrogant about. Pehaps it is not the MT that makes a person arrogant, but rather arrogant people are drawn to MT because of it's tough reputation. On a personal note, in my MT class, although there are some truly frightening fighters, none of them are anything but nice, and I have never seen any of them try to intimidate another or boost their own egos by saying or doing something arrogant.

Ok, ok aznkarateboi, sorry I brought it up. You are correct in getting as many opinions as possible, I remember before I settled on a school I posted a lot about different styles, and sought many many opinions. Getting as much information as possible about a school before going to it is very smart. But this post...you are just asking for details of why TMAs are "useless". To me that seemed like just fanning the fires that these style bashers start. But if it's an opinion of what could make someone think a traditional style is useless that involves a negative view of TMAs that you want, here you go: I practice a traditional martial art that is not in the category of other traditional martial arts because it does not do katas and there are absolutely no formalities in class. I like this because I did not enjoy learning katas. I also did not like having to learn bits and pieces of another language just to be proficient in class. I also did not like having to bow at the right times and call my instructor this or that and address him in such a way and on and on. I like learning to fight, toughening myself up and getting in shape and not much else. So the art I chose is perfect for me in that regard. And this is where other people will tell you that because it is right for me, it is also right for you and because I don't like learning katas that they must be a stupid waste of time and any art that teaches them is useless. Sorry, I can't do that. And anyone who will say something like that is so short sighted that you shouldn't be listening to them anyway, so again back to my original point, stop asking for negative opinions and choose what is right for you.

While I study MT and agree with you for the most part, I don't really think that MTs victories in the ring over karate can be considered a definitive way of deciding which is more effective. Here is some reasoning to that. Consider that karate and other traditional martial arts have an aspect to them that teaches humility. So the very best karatekas in the world would probably also be the most humble. These karatekas would most likely not feel the need to dominate another in a sport match in order to prove their skills. They are spiritually centered enough to be comfortable knowing their skills are superior without having to massage their ego by proving it. So maybe, just maybe there are many karatekas who are better than MT fighters, but you will never know it because they will never be in the ring together. I only went into the above to illustrate that the ring is no indicator of art effectiveness, it is only a good indicator of the effectiveness of the two fighters in that ring. As for effectiveness of the art, I have done karate (Shuri-ryu, similar to Shotokan) and did not find it nearly as effective as the MT I am learning now. But that opinion is based purely on my experience which is probably skewed by being in a bad karate school and a good MT school. I could have very easily went to a bad MT school and a good karate school and it is possible that I would feel the opposite of how I feel now. So in conclusion, I can only agree with the original poster that everyone should respect other arts a bit more than I see on these boards. Because in the end we are all learning something that takes work and prepares us for a fight far more than the regular Joe on the street is prepared.

Kirves - I know what you mean and I do understand why he would want to know why. However, this kind of thread is common for aznkarateboi and rather than continuing along the lines of "this person says TMAs are useless, what do you think?" I am trying to steer him in a different direction, one of not caring about all that bashing. Because the bashing won't stop and no matter how many different posts he makes with the same general concern, we won't be able to help him until he learns to make up his mind to ignore the bashing and choose what feels right for him. And for the record, he didn't ask for reasons "why certain people bash the TMAs". He asked for "more specific details on why TMAs are useless". Big difference there...in the former he would be asking non-bashers what is up with all the bashing. But in the latter, he actually is asking the bashers for a detailed bashing. Definately something I wanted to warn him against doing. aznkarateboi - Kirves, TJS and ninjanurse all made excellent posts, however, we will not really be able to "provide more specific details on why these arts (traditional) are 'useless'" because they are not. If you just want to know why the bashers think they are useless as Kirves assumed, I can offer two possible reasons. 1) It is a common misconception that the experience one has with something is the only experience there can be with that thing - example - "I studied Kung Fu and at my school we barely did anything that would be useful in the streets". And the common misconception is that based on that experience with one Kung Fu school, all Kung Fu schools barely do anything that would be useful in the streets. 2) It is a normal human reaction to think that the choice one has made is the right one, thus making the other choices wrong, it is somewhat rare to find people who understand that just because their choice was right for them, that does not make it right for everyone.

While I agree that proper grammer is key to avoiding misunderstandings I should point out that english is not everyone on this board's first language and a little effort in understanding would go a long way. And while I would never pick on anyone for their grammatical errors, I felt I should make an exception given your high and mighty tone followed by "I could write a two pages...". That was funny, not as easy as it sounds to write perfectly is it?

Traditional martial arts are effective in combat. It is true that the learning curve is a bit longer than in Krav Maga or MT, but anyone who says they are useless is uninformed or is bored and trying to start/fuel a debate. This is troll activity. By asking for reasons why traditional arts are useless, you are asking for reasons why the trolls are correct, when there can be no such reasons. Don't feed the trolls! Stop being so paranoid about a few highly slanted views on traditional martial arts. There are more people on this board that will recommend them than there are people who will bash them, so why are you so focused on the ones bashing the TMAs? If you like the Kung Fu school go train there and once you have made that decision, embrace your art and start training hard in it, not second guessing it just because of a couple naysayers. You will never be a good race car driver or have fun driving if you are afraid to start the car because some jackholes are telling you the car you are in is the wrong one. The most important thing is to pick a car and be passionate about learning how to drive that car well.

My belt is brown...the one that holds up my pants. I practice Muay Thai and as the saying goes, the only belts in Muay Thai are the ones you get in the ring, so I won't be getting a belt. I'm a new guy, been at it almost 2 months.

Elbow the mitts and thrust knee the thai pads. That seems to be working to condition them for me...my right elbow is missing some skin from hitting the mitts last night. and my knees are sore, but then again so are my shins and my shoulders.

You say you are going to get together with some of the students. What about your instructor. You must have someone who was teaching you. What is going to happen to this person? GreenDragon

I agree with Kirves, my MT school only does sparring once a week. So does the other MT school in my town. Understand that with MT a lot of your regular training is done with a live partner who is throwing punches/kicks that you have to block and counter or is giving you moving targets in the form of focus mits/thai pads. So the need to spar often is not as high as with other arts where your training may consist of practicing blocks and punches in the air while doing forms or drills. And I doubt that any other arts will do sparring much more than once a week anyway. And concerning more than one art at a school, it is very common for MT schools to also teach BJJ. I don't really know why. But my school teaches the exact three that you listed the Linxx academy as teaching. Sounds like I am pushing the MT school eh? Not intentionally. Just wanted to give you as much information as possible, and since I train at a school similar to Linxx, it is what I can speak to. Like I said, I think their prices are ridiculously high. But the Kung Fu place has a very well produced web site and the money for that kind of thing has to come from somewhere so I don't imagine they are much of a bargain either (but I can't imagine them costing as much as Linxx). Kung Fu is a great art. Personally the only thing I don't like about Hung Fut is that is sounds like it may have too many animal styles blended into one style. Each animal style can be studied as it's own complete art (Black Tiger, Praying Mantis, etc.) One popular art, Hung Gar is said to have mixed Tiger and Crane. Mixing a lot of them like Hung Fut claims to do seems, well, I dunno, someone with a Shaolin background can probably speak to this point better than I so I won't come right out and say it is bad, but I would learn more about it if I were you. Where is Paolung when you need him? GreenDragon

Nothing I say is ever good enough for you is it Kirves!? Just kidding. As with most things, it sounds like your interpretation of my post is a matter of perspective and incomplete communication. Let's try this: Where I said "This is an endorsement for the ring being a better test of a fighter." Change that and suppliment to: "This is an endorsement for the ring being a better test of an art for street self-defense, because if a ring fighter can beat someone who is in amazing physical condition and is highly trained, they can certainly beat the pants off of the typical Joe Thug in the street." And of course on the other side of the coin "This is an endorsement for the life of a street cop/security guard, etc. being the best test of fighting skills." Changes to "This is an endorsement for the life of a street cop/security guard, etc. being the best test of an art for street self-defense, because he will actually be defending himself in the street with no rules and his typical opponent will be far more desperate and determined to stay out of prison than an opponent in a ring. There, that's better. Howya like me now Kirvy? Oh, excellent post by the way, yours is a point that I'm sure not many had thought of. GreenDragon

Side one of coin: In the ring everyone you fight will be a highly trained fighter. Most thugs are not highly trained, although they may have a lot of experience, they are not martial arts experts the vast majority of the time (at least where I live). A typical thug will have far fewer skills than the typical MMA stylist. This is an endorsement for the ring being a better test of a fighter. Side two of the coin: Although some people will yield to authority, the real baddies (which cops have to deal with regularly) will tend to fight far more fiercely than even the most determined and skilled ring fighter, and will not give up, ever. To avoid going to prison it is not at all uncommon for a suspect to try and kill a police officer. Many people think that if something violent like an attack on a cop were to happen in their community, it would be all over the news. Having been entertained by a police scanner many nights and reading the news the next day I can personally say this is absolutely not the case. Gag orders to the media are so common in drug and gang related crimes that most people have no idea just how dangerous of a city they live in. This is an endorsement for the life of a street cop/security guard, etc. being the best test of fighting skills. In conclusion, to anyone willing to step in the professional ring or fight real bad guys on the street as a cop, I salute you. I will never be devoted/foolhardy/brave enough to do either of those ultimate tests of fighting skills. And since I do not do either, there is no way for me to back up a claim of which one is a better test of fighting skills. If anyone on this board has experience with both, their word will be gospel, everyone else is simply justifying their own opinion. So have fun with that. GreenDragon

Style-wise I like the MT, BJJ place. But price-wise they are off the charts! The Kung Fu place seems very good, I'd be curious to see how their rates compare. So you want to know which would suit your goals best. *Fun - This is very subjective, i know in my MT class I get really sore and bruised a lot. Some people don't find this fun. In the Kung Fu class you will learn various animal forms, some people find this very fun, and some do not. If you enjoyed katas, it is something to consider: There will not be any at the Linxx academy. *Self Defense - They both look like they'd do a good job of that. The Kung Fu will generally take several years to come to a deep enough understanding of all the forms you are learning for it to be extremely effective, but once you are there, Kung Fu is awesome for Self Defense. MT/BJJ will be effective for self defense much sooner. *Physical Fitness - I know the MT/BJJ place will get you in good shape, it is part of how those arts are taught. Kung Fu, depends on the place. You said you visited them, so be your own judge of which place will be better at this for you. *Visual Appeal - What? Do you really care how you look? Ok...well in some of the pictures of the Sifu at the Kung Fu place his stance has his feet turned in like like he is pigeon toed. That looks uncomfortable and goofy, you don't want to look like that do ya? The Mantis Kung Fu forms will have your hands bent at the wrist in such a way that you will look like a dancing fairy, not good. lol. In BJJ you will be rolling around with a bunch of sweaty guys, and I don't have to tell you what that will look like. In all seriousness, I have no idea what you mean by listing this as one of your goals. GreenDragon

Yes Kirves' post was excellent, his analogy of the military forces speaks perfectly to your issue. The fact is most of them are for different things, and of the ones that are pretty much the same, some are going to be better than others for self defense. But to use his analogy to support your argument, even the worst army is usually better prepared than a group of rowdy peasants with shotguns. The other side of the coin: Another excellent post that I want to expand upon for you here is the one by G95Champ. The "disagree" was with the assumption that anyone trained in any MA has a distinct advantage over the typical street thug or bar-room brawler. To the extent of techniques used, this is true, but there is A LOT more to a real fight than technique. The following quote is one of many excellent points made in this article: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html "Bad Guys are Very Bad. The bad news is that most of the bad guys out there are bad all day long, every day, their whole lives through. Most bad guys are seasoned experts at intimidation and violence. For them, it's their daily mugging, their regular bar fight that they like to start, or their usual dose of bullying someone weaker than they. For you, it's a once in a lifetime attack that you are praying you will survive. The willingness to do evil and the enjoyment of making others suffer combined with a bad guy's superior experience is usually enough to give him a huge advantage that you will have a hard time overcoming. Let's face it: bad guys are typically poor males with almost nothing to lose. Victims are usually middle or upper class females and males who cannot afford so much as a black eye in the conference room the next morning. The victim who has everything to lose has a mind full of consequences from a proper upbringing. The deck is stacked against the person who can afford karate lessons." Read the article...the bottom line is that regardless of the art you take, you will be better prepared to defend yourself than you were without taking any MAs, so in that respect any martial art is better than none. But it will not always give you an advantage over the bad guy. So if it is self defense you are interested in, it is in your best interest to research and find the art that is not only better suited to self defense than another but is also best suited for you to learn. GreenDragon

Andrew is correct, they are actually highly incompatable. I would highly recommend against doing both. I took karate and switched to MT. Out of habit I still perform karate blocks every once in a while (which are quite different) and try to chamber punches, both of which will get me hurt during sparring. Your original idea of mixing a grappling art with a stand-up art was the most sound, stick with that idea, and stop looking for something near by. GreenDragon

Ok, I'll be the oddball willing to reply...No, I don't train at home at all and I am happy with my progress thus far. I go 2-3 times a week for 2 hours each time. GreenDragon